Expanding the People Mover into city-wide rapid transit? (Detroit, Dearborn: condo, home)
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Mr. Jensens is right, because of this Wuhan virus, federal funding for rapid transit might not be there for a couple years. But since it takes a few years to do all the studies and get all of the approvals, by the time shovels are ready to start digging, federal funding might be restored.
I do like the automated aspect of the People Mover, I wouldn't want that scrapped. The PeopleMover being automated is super-duper reliable, and the operating costs would be A WHOLE LOT LESS if we don't have to pay conductors. We just have to find a way to pay for the construction. A person in another forum suggested that Detroit could partially finance a rapid transit line via bonds and re-directing the annual budget allocation for demolition/blight removal (around $55-$60 million per year) to paying off the bonds for this rapid transit line.
What do you mean by loop? Do you mean a single train that goes in one direction to the terminus and then turns around and goes back down the same track the other way? Or do you mean a big circle like the PM is now, or the Chigcago loop? If you mean a big circle, where is the circle you are thinking of? It goes to Ferndale, and then where? How does it get back downtown? If you mean a loop that goes up Woodward on one track and comes back on a different one, whether on Woodward or swinging out through other locations like the current PM does, either way that is a double quantity of track.
I mean a 2-track route heading north from Grand Circus. ie, a train heading south from RO, Ferndale, MS Fairgrounds, etc, would travel down Woodward and when it reaches the PM Loop... exactly as it is, today, trains would switch into the PM loop (turning right, West) heading Counterclockwise. Trains would make all station stops along the (current, single-track PM loop), traversing completely around the Loop until returning back to Grand Circus where they would switch back out (turning right/North) and onto the 2-track Woodward line to reach the northern terminal, wherever that may be.
This is exactly how Chicago trains enter-loop-depart for the Brown, Pink, Orange and Purple Lines -- the Chicago L loop, for these lines, is a terminal Loop. Don't confuse the fact that the Chicago L Loop is double track, because each of the aforementioned color-coded lines only use 1, 1-way set of tracks enter, pass through (looping around, that is) and return back out their individual routes. They just have need for a 2nd track because, given the number of train lines entering and circling the Loop, there's the need to route some lines to run clockwise while the others, counterclockwise.
Only the W-S Green Line passes through the northern and eastern portions of the loop, using both loop tracks heading to either Oak Park, to the west, or Cottage Grove Ave to the South. A 2-track Woodward Line could, theoretically run trains as tight as every 5 minutes at rush hour and, if well signaled (or, better yet, computer controlled) could navigate the PM loop in a relatively quick fashion.
NOTE: Obviously the current PM station platforms would have to be lengthened to accommodate trains longer than the current 2-car configuration.
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Why would Detroit need a new rapid transit system now? Isn't Detroit's population expected to be down to about 650,000. That's about a 1,200,000 population decline from peak.
Who would spend $100s of billions to build a rapid transit sytem now? No one is currently using mass transit and many systems will take a long time to recover, if at all.
Suburban growth is again exceeding primary cities' growth.
Primary cities had a few years from 2011-2015 of higher growth than suburbs, that had pretty much reversed by mid-decade.
Now, after Covid and the current urban unrest, the suburban growth and smaller cities growth will accelarate.
One good thing for Detroit out of all of this: people will be buying cars!
Last edited by coventry80; 06-18-2020 at 06:56 PM..
Why would Detroit need a new rapid transit system now? Isn't Detroit's population expected to be down to about 650,000. That's about a 1,200,000 population decline from peak.
Who would spend $100s of billions to build a rapid transit sytem now? No one is currently using mass transit and many systems will take a long time to recover, if at all.
Suburban growth is again exceeding primary cities' growth.
Primary cities had a few years from 2011-2015 of higher growth than suburbs, that had pretty much reversed by mid-decade.
Now, after Covid and the current urban unrest, the suburban growth and smaller cities growth will accelarate.
One good thing for Detroit out of all of this: people will be buying cars!
Wow! You sure are clueless about Detroit’s current renaissance and progress, you seem to be living in 2005.
Wow! You sure are clueless about Detroit’s current renaissance and progress, you seem to be living in 2005.
Really? I know downtown is seeing development but other than that, when did the population turn around? The downtown renaissance gave Detroit its streetcar.
Now it's time for a rapid transit system-network? So a city that went from 1,800,000 to 650,000 is in a renaissance and ready for $$100s+ billions for a rapid transit network?
Wouldn't a rapid transit network have been a good idea in '50s or maybe '60s?
You sure are clueless about the cost, need, and usefulness of a new rapid transit network in a city that has lost about 64% of its population.
While the city of Detroit continues to lose population, even the metro and csa areas are now at stagnant growth. Unfortunately, Detroit isn't a top 10 city, metro, or csa any longer.
Sorry, I like Detroit and all but building a rapid transit network makes no sense. Who's gonna pay for it let alone use it?
Last edited by coventry80; 06-19-2020 at 09:41 AM..
Really? I know downtown is seeing development but other than that, when did the population turn around? The downtown renaissance gave Detroit its streetcar.
Now it's time for a rapid transit system-network? So a city that went from 1,800,000 to 650,000 is in a renaissance and ready for $$100s+ billions for a rapid transit network?
Wouldn't a rapid transit network have been a good idea in '50s or maybe '60s?
You sure are clueless about the cost, need, and useful for a new rapid transit network in a city that has lost about 64% of its population.
While the city of Detroit continues to lose population, even the metro and csa areas are now at stagnant growth. Unfortunately, Detroit isn't a top 10 city, metro, or csa any longer.
Sorry, I like Detroit and all but building a rapid transit network makes no sense. Who's gonna pay for it let alone use it?
Some people predict a negative long-term negative effect of the pandemic; among them, that cities will no longer function as gathering places for employment and entertainment as they traditionally have been... I'm not among the doomsayers, although I wouldn't be surprised at some long term effects; we'll just have to wait and see.
Actually the 1950s and 60s were horrible years for mass transit in this country. Detroit and other cities were paving over their inter-cities with freeways. Streetcars and even some rapid transit lines were eliminated wholesale. The last several decades has seen a renaissance of mass transit: consider LA, Dallas, Denver, Seattle, SLC, Houston, MSP, St. Louis... none of these places had rapid transit but, now, have growing or thriving mass transit systems,. And their impact on their cities is amazing in terms of developing large-scale TOD and enhancing walkability and intimate Main Street settings.
Why you believe that couldn't happen in Detroit? If you haven't seen the positive movement in Detroit (downtown, Midtown, Corkdown, Mexicantown, Eastern Market -- which finally is becoming a neighborhood -- East Jefferson, the Villages), in this direction, even without true rapid transit -- yet, you haven't been paying attention.
Really? I know downtown is seeing development but other than that, when did the population turn around? The downtown renaissance gave Detroit its streetcar.
Now it's time for a rapid transit system-network? So a city that went from 1,800,000 to 650,000 is in a renaissance and ready for $$100s+ billions for a rapid transit network?
Wouldn't a rapid transit network have been a good idea in '50s or maybe '60s?
You sure are clueless about the cost, need, and usefulness of a new rapid transit network in a city that has lost about 64% of its population.
While the city of Detroit continues to lose population, even the metro and csa areas are now at stagnant growth. Unfortunately, Detroit isn't a top 10 city, metro, or csa any longer.
Sorry, I like Detroit and all but building a rapid transit network makes no sense. Who's gonna pay for it let alone use it?
Detroit has been on the upswing for the past decade, and it’s population loss is down to a trickle. It’s DT and surrounding neighbourhoods have been seeing unprecedented investment and population growth, while other parts of the city are still losing population, but even they aren’t losing population like years ago.
Detroit has been on the upswing for the past decade, and it’s population loss is down to a trickle. It’s DT and surrounding neighbourhoods have been seeing unprecedented investment and population growth, while other parts of the city are still losing population, but even they aren’t losing population like years ago.
Well, after about 65% population loss, it's bound to bottom out sometime but the lower population loss is a hit-miss with Detroit. Detroit's population loss also slowed down in the '90s, then jumped to -25% in the '00s, now slower again.
Suburbs are growing faster than core cities. Covid and widespread urban unrest leaving citizens to fend for themselves isn't going to help the urban-city living movement.
Still, spending $100s of billions for a heavy rail rapid transit system in Detroit is ridiculous as transit systems even pre covid were seeing declines.
Last edited by coventry80; 06-19-2020 at 11:20 AM..
Some people predict a negative long-term negative effect of the pandemic; among them, that cities will no longer function as gathering places for employment and entertainment as they traditionally have been... I'm not among the doomsayers, although I wouldn't be surprised at some long term effects; we'll just have to wait and see.
Actually the 1950s and 60s were horrible years for mass transit in this country. Detroit and other cities were paving over their inter-cities with freeways. Streetcars and even some rapid transit lines were eliminated wholesale. The last several decades has seen a renaissance of mass transit: consider LA, Dallas, Denver, Seattle, SLC, Houston, MSP, St. Louis... none of these places had rapid transit but, now, have growing or thriving mass transit systems,. And their impact on their cities is amazing in terms of developing large-scale TOD and enhancing walkability and intimate Main Street settings.
Why you believe that couldn't happen in Detroit? If you haven't seen the positive movement in Detroit (downtown, Midtown, Corkdown, Mexicantown, Eastern Market -- which finally is becoming a neighborhood -- East Jefferson, the Villages), in this direction, even without true rapid transit -- yet, you haven't been paying attention.
OK, then Detroit should have built its rapid transit system when it was a good time to do so. Chicago built its subways in the '40s and '50s and Cleveland built its version of a heavy rail system in the '50s so it's not like the '50s was as transit dismal as you describe. Even BART was formed and planned in the '50s, built in the '60s as was DC's Metro system.
Both the pandemic and the current insecurity being felt in many cities due to the current city-wide unrest in many cities are not good signs for certain cities in the short-to-long term. There are serious security issues related to many cities now; even worse than a foreign virus is the feeling of not feeling safe living in cities.
Not so sure if these new rapid transit systems are thriving though. I'm sure you know there is a difference between rapid transit and light-rail, both of which are struggling to maintain or increase ridership.
OK, then Detroit should have built its rapid transit system when it was a good time to do so. Chicago built its subways in the '40s and '50s and Cleveland built its version of a heavy rail system in the '50s so it's not like the '50s was as transit dismal as you describe. Even BART was formed and planned in the '50s, built in the '60s as was DC's Metro system.
Both the pandemic and the current insecurity being felt in many cities due to the current city-wide unrest in many cities are not good signs for certain cities in the short-to-long term. There are serious security issues related to many cities now; even worse than a foreign virus is the feeling of not feeling safe living in cities.
Not so sure if these new rapid transit systems are thriving though. I'm sure you know there is a difference between rapid transit and light-rail, both of which are struggling to maintain or increase ridership.
Cleveland was the first, and only city to build a new rapid transit system in the 1950s. (IIRC the new system opened prior to that was the Newark, NJ subway in the mid-1930s). The 1950s was about junking transit and building freeways for the new cars that were exploding on the roadways with the burgening middle class following WWII. Cleveland bucked the trend -- and actually, the Red Line, itself, was really an outgrowth of the LRT system (the Shaker Rapid, now the Blue and Green Lines) built during the WWII era in the 19-teens; the bulk of the Red Line's ROW was built in the late 20s by the Van Sweringen brothers (Google them) who built the suburb of Shaker Heights and connected it to downtown with the Rapid, whose service was revolutionary at the time. Unfortunately the oncoming Great Depression stopped them from opening the Red Line in 1930 as planned. The common histori is why the Cleveland LRT and HRT systems form a network with all trains sharing track/ROW (for 2.7 miles on the East Side), maintenance and power facilities as well as 3 station stops (with differing platform heights to serve the different train types).
The next rapid transit system in the USA developed after Cleveland's CTS Rapid (now the Red Line), was Philly's 1969 PATCO line to NJ (which, like Cleveland's Red Line was the outgrowth of a pre-existing legacy rapid line). Then came BART, the DC METRO and MARTA which all came in the 1970s, so no, your history is way off in terms rapid transit development.
Yes, Detroit probably should have developed rapid transit decades, maybe even a century earlier, but so what? Are we giving out penalty cards now? Does this mean Detroit should be 'banned' from considering rapid transit now?
Ridiculous.
Last edited by TheProf; 06-19-2020 at 01:01 PM..
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