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This thread begs the question why do we have a debt based economy in the first place. Where does our nation's production go?
Why can't our Nation's Gross Domestic Production be of value, why must debt be introjected into debt and who started this?
(jeckyll island)
Lincoln tried to kick the foreign bankers out. guess what happened to him.
Kennedy started silver certificates. hello...
Lets look at some facts. A chain restaurant such as McDonald's budget 30% of sales to cover salary. 30% to cover food costs, and supplies used. The other 30% is used to pay off loans, remodeling, etc. What is left over from that 30% is the profit which is not as much as most people think. Raise the minimum wage by 40%, and the business will go bankrupt if they cannot raise prices enough to cover the new wage scale. Often competition makes it impossible to raise the prices as much as needed, so the business is on the downhill slide to closing.
With touch screen ordering systems that take the money, and this machine the number of people working in the restaurant at a time can be cut to one person feeding ingredients into the machine. On putting the orders together, and one cleaning up the lobby, etc. along with one supervisor. At current prices, the machine will pay for itself in 1 year and run for very little expenses after that. As wages go up, it will pay for itself in months. No withholding to pay. No insurance to pay for these missing workers. The machine can improve the quality of the food with better ingredients, and uniformity you cannot get with human help. Places like McDonald's have resisted the idea of using these machines, but the higher minimum wages will force them into use.
I know what is going on, as I have family members that own several California McDonald's, and they say they and the people in the business have been preparing to replace workers with automation due to labor costs going to be driven out of sight. They anticipate that higher prices, will reduce sales to the point it will be impossible to operate any way but going automated.
And at $15 an hour, they will be able to attract mature workers who are more reliable than the young people, and seniors they hire now.
A lot of workers that want a big raise, are going to be on the unemployment line in the near future.
Just read the last two paragraphs of the link above, which supports all I said above.
We are not only talking fast food restaurants. Improved computer systems are are going to be replacing workers in offices that earn under $15 an hour.
It is amazing how much of the low wage workforce, can be replaced with machines and electronics. It was not necessary for companies to bring them into general use, but with cost of wages going up they will pay for the machine using the wages of replaced workers to buy them.
Example. A couple of friends, have replaced their lawn mowing service with robotic lawnmowers that do as good or better job, than the service provided. A few months of no longer having a lawn mowing service, now pays for a machine that can do the job for years.
This mower can mow twice a week which is really needed instead of the present weekly, and keep up a better lawn. It works beautiful for people I know that use the machine. Only mow once a week now, costing $40 per week due to size of lawn. Automated sprinkling system for years, and now auto mow. My solution for a better yard, without the work. At 82, I just cannot do it myself any longer, reason for the lawn service. Paid for in 6 months of twice weekly mowing the lawn needs. Next year, it mows for free.
Pushing up the minimum wage, is going to displace a lot of workers and raise the unemployment rate.
Due to spiraling costs for businesses and home maintenance,
Lets look at some facts. A chain restaurant such as McDonald's budget 30% of sales to cover salary. 30% to cover food costs, and supplies used. The other 30% is used to pay off loans, remodeling, etc. What is left over from that 30% is the profit which is not as much as most people think. Raise the minimum wage by 40%, and the business will go bankrupt if they cannot raise prices enough to cover the new wage scale. Often competition makes it impossible to raise the prices as much as needed, so the business is on the downhill slide to closing.
With touch screen ordering systems that take the money, and this machine the number of people working in the restaurant at a time can be cut to one person feeding ingredients into the machine. On putting the orders together, and one cleaning up the lobby, etc. along with one supervisor. At current prices, the machine will pay for itself in 1 year and run for very little expenses after that. As wages go up, it will pay for itself in months. No withholding to pay. No insurance to pay for these missing workers. The machine can improve the quality of the food with better ingredients, and uniformity you cannot get with human help. Places like McDonald's have resisted the idea of using these machines, but the higher minimum wages will force them into use.
I know what is going on, as I have family members that own several California McDonald's, and they say they and the people in the business have been preparing to replace workers with automation due to labor costs going to be driven out of sight. They anticipate that higher prices, will reduce sales to the point it will be impossible to operate any way but going automated.
And at $15 an hour, they will be able to attract mature workers who are more reliable than the young people, and seniors they hire now.
A lot of workers that want a big raise, are going to be on the unemployment line in the near future.
Just read the last two paragraphs of the link above, which supports all I said above.
We are not only talking fast food restaurants. Improved computer systems are are going to be replacing workers in offices that earn under $15 an hour.
It is amazing how much of the low wage workforce, can be replaced with machines and electronics. It was not necessary for companies to bring them into general use, but with cost of wages going up they will pay for the machine using the wages of replaced workers to buy them.
Example. A couple of friends, have replaced their lawn mowing service with robotic lawnmowers that do as good or better job, than the service provided. A few months of no longer having a lawn mowing service, now pays for a machine that can do the job for years.
This mower can mow twice a week which is really needed instead of the present weekly, and keep up a better lawn. It works beautiful for people I know that use the machine. Only mow once a week now, costing $40 per week due to size of lawn. Automated sprinkling system for years, and now auto mow. My solution for a better yard, without the work. At 82, I just cannot do it myself any longer, reason for the lawn service. Paid for in 6 months of twice weekly mowing the lawn needs. Next year, it mows for free.
Pushing up the minimum wage, is going to displace a lot of workers and raise the unemployment rate.
Due to spiraling costs for businesses and home maintenance,
To the MCD example a percentage increase in min wage is not a direct correlation to increased fixed cost for MCD. Also a 30% profit margin isn't much? That's actually pretty damn stout . But if min wage went up 40% that doesn't equal bankruptcy even if they can't raise prices, the math behind it doesn't support that
This thread begs the question why do we have a debt based economy in the first place. Where does our nation's production go?
This is a really important question that a lot of people (Zero Hedge) don't understand. The answer is that our production doesn't "go" anywhere, because it can't. What would that even mean?
This thread begs the question why do we have a debt based economy in the first place. Where does our nation's production go?
Why can't our Nation's Gross Domestic Production be of value, why must debt be introjected into debt and who started this?
(jeckyll island)
Lincoln tried to kick the foreign bankers out. guess what happened to him.
Kennedy started silver certificates. hello...
Trying running a household or business without using debt or credit and let me know how that goes. I'm not even sure what you are talking about in term of our nations production and where is goes
With all the talks of how good a $15hr will be for people with no skills
Well, I hate to burst your bubble (well, actually I like bursting bubbles), but America was at its strongest and healthiest when people with no skills could get a job at a local factory and make a solid middle-class living.
Because, you see, our economy is a consumer-driven economy. The more people with disposable incomes who are out buying things, the healthier and more robust our economy is.
NOW, however, greedy tycoons and financiers are practicing an economy without consumers. They don't give a crap whether their model is sustainable or whether it strengthens our nation. Now it's all about how much money they can hoarde before the next financial collapse.
If you look at the financial history of America, we could hold our heads high during the 50's when we really did have the best standard of living in the world. Today, we've fallen to number 11 and I doubt our fall from grace has ended. Today, consumers aren't really consumers per se. Instead the bulk of their incomes go to insurance, debt (especially student loans), and basic needs.
And guess what's going to happen. Here's a primer in a nutshell. Since 2010, 67% of all new jobs created were low wage jobs in the service sector. But, without consumers, how long will these service jobs last? Since the people working those service jobs cannot themselves afford many of the services they provide, it is only a matter of time before stores, restaurants, and other low-wage job creators scale back, downsize, lay people off ... or close down altogether. Even major chains have had to go on store-closing rampages just to keep themselves afloat.
To add worse to woe, the government depends on a healthy middle class to provide its income. Yeah, I know people whine about taxes - but that's because there are too many idiots in this country who want to live in a First World nation without having to pay for it. So, without consumers - and with the majority of people not making enough to even pay taxes, what do you think will happen? Yeah, that's right ... our roads will deteriorate past the point of usability and schools will close forcing classroom sizes of 6o or more kids to a room. Not only will there be more crime as increasing numbers of people find themselves jobless and homeless, it will become easier to get away with it as police forces find themselves strapped for cash. The fact that our education system will fail abysmally (think it's bad now? Just wait ...) means more kids on the street growing up feral (especially if parents have to work 3 or 4 low wage jobs to keep food on the table). National parks will have to be abandoned, museums will close, and just about every last thing paid for or subsidized by the state, local, or federal government will meet a slow, agonizing death. That includes our military, by the way.
This is an immutable fact. How bad it really gets depends on what we do about it - which will probably be nothing given that too many people support the crooks on Wall Street and sitting in our board rooms. Too many people think they can gleefully drive on our roads without having to pay for them, send their kids to public schools without having to pay for them, see their kids joining the most powerful military ever without having to pay for it, etc. etc. Too many people have forgotten that a consumer-driven economy needs consumers, NOT 120 million beggars who have to float all their purchases on credit.
Paying no-skill and low-skill people a decent wage was the best thing that ever happened to America, and the rich were paying as much as 90% in taxes on income over $200,000. Back then, people were actually patriotic, had at least a little faith in their government, and businesses wanted a strong America and not just a huge profit margin that they could squirrel away in the Cayman Islands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN
Many times minimum wage jobs are given to people that will get a job that most people refuse to work, as most people will not flip burgers or mop floors etc.
The only reason why people refuse to do those jobs is because the wages are so low that you can't be financially independent. You either need a second job - which really really sucks - or you need help from family or you need a roommate or two (and the older you get the harder it is to find roommates that you actually know).
If mopping floors or flipping burgers actually paid a decent wage (it doesn't have to pay for vacations in Paris every year, but it should at least pay enough to live on with a modicum of comfort), you would suddenly see lines out the door to apply for a McDonald's toilet-cleaner job. The phrase, "Would you like fries with that?" would no longer be an admission of failure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN
If wages did go to $15hr, now employees can be much more selective on who they hire as many people would work for $15hr compared to $7.25 hr.
Actually, that's part of the problem right now. Businesses think that they can hire people with masters degrees to answer phones and clean toilets. When they can't find anyone, they whine and complain that there's a lack of "qualified" (LOL!) applicants in this country. You cannot treat a low-to-no skill job as if it's a top level executive job at Goldman & Sachs. When companies artificially pad their job requirements with useless skills that have no bearing on the actual job, they disqualify tens of millions of hard-working Americans that would be more than happy to stay with the company for 40 years. Sorry, but you just don't need a doctorate in particle physics to be a cashier - and anyone with a post-high school education will jump at any chance to get out of an unskilled position.
But ... even if raising the minimum wage does result in employers demanding more qualifications (they're already doing that), it just means that educated people will have jobs that can actually help them pay off their student loans so the taxpayers don't get a big middle finger from people with degrees making minimum wage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN
So when many of these no skilled workers that no one wanted to hire previously because of their poor worth ethic, poor appearance, or ghetto/rotten attitudes,
Well, there's a big part of the problem - the idea that low or no skilled workers are lazy, have a poor work ethic, and have ghetto attitudes. Some do, but many do not, but if that's your preconceived notion of who they are, it's no wonder they aren't treated with any kind of respect. My grandfather only had a high school diploma yet went to work in a steel mill that made him very comfortable. He wasn't lazy, stupid, or possessed of a poor work ethic - and who really gives two craps about what someone looks like if they're working in a steel mill? With jobs like that, I'd be more interested in whether the candidate can thrive doing a tough job like working steel.
Plus, there's another big problem with today's economy: Businesses are unwilling to train. People today need oodles of experience to get even the most menial jobs. The result is a sort of musical chairs game, and if you got caught standing when the music stopped, you were screwed. Thus only 11% of people unemployed for more than 6 months have found jobs. You need experience now, not an education. Unless you pop out of your mamma's womb with an MBA from Harvard, best get used to flipping those burgers (assuming you can even get that job).
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN
but had no choice because no one else would take the job, now cant get a job because better applicants will now works those positions, will they do the next thing in resorting to stealing since they can no longer provide for themselves and no one will hire them since there will be less jobs available.
This is a redundant fear given that what you're worried about is already happening. Not because of an increase in minimum wage but because people are so desperate for jobs that they'll take any position that allows them to eat every night. If you push up minimum wage to $15/hour, nothing is going to change in that department. Employers are already demanding things like college degrees and years of experience to punch cash registers or stock store shelves. Hell, even in this dinky little town where I live (pop 400), the little grocery store required at least 6 months of experience to work as a cashier there - which pushes out all the teens and college kids who are looking for their first jobs. So they run the streets all day and night getting into trouble.
Raising the minimum wage isn't going to raise the qualifications for menial jobs. The reason is simple - because many employers are already requiring too much. They can't suddenly require vaunted degrees from Ivy League schools to work at a call center or as a bus boy. Those people are finding work - and there are precious few of them besides.
No, the opposite will happen. People will actually be making a living wage and won't have to steal and won't need food stamps anymore. Nice try, though.
That hasn't happened one time since 1938 when the minimum wage was enacted. I'm not one who believes that raising the minimum wage will have dire consequences, but I do realize that historically it has had zero long term benefit. Minimum wage earners will still be making minimum wage, and that "living wage" that you're espousing is nothing but a pipe dream. Once the market corrects for governmental interference, minimum wage will still not enable people to afford the same things that they can't afford now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowexpectations
Trying running a household or business without using debt or credit and let me know how that goes. I'm not even sure what you are talking about in term of our nations production and where is goes
I've been running my household without debt or credit for over 7 years, and it's going pretty well. The only bills we have are rent and utilities. We may pick up some debt next year when we buy a house, but it will be a small fraction of the purchase price and paid off quickly.
That hasn't happened one time since 1938 when the minimum wage was enacted. I'm not one who believes that raising the minimum wage will have dire consequences, but I do realize that historically it has had zero long term benefit. Minimum wage earners will still be making minimum wage, and that "living wage" that you're espousing is nothing but a pipe dream. Once the market corrects for governmental interference, minimum wage will still not enable people to afford the same things that they can't afford now.
I've been running my household without debt or credit for over 7 years, and it's going pretty well. The only bills we have are rent and utilities. We may pick up some debt next year when we buy a house, but it will be a small fraction of the purchase price and paid off quickly.
You are extended credit by the utility company. You use electricity and Natgas over the course of a month and have terms to pay for it at a later date.
Adjusted for inflation most of our salaries should go up 40% since the 90s but it hasn't because the ones in control ensures that nobody else but them get their salaries inflation adjusted.
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