Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You can't change the grading scale, but the district can. We now have standards based grading up through 6th grade and supposedly it's going to work it's way up through the upper grades.
I can still see parents argueing over what constitutes mastery. Definitions need to be very clear and unbending.
Not sure I'd like this though. I have 143 standards and 150+students.... That's a lot of grading.
I can still see parents argueing over what constitutes mastery. Definitions need to be very clear and unbending.
Not sure I'd like this though. I have 143 standards and 150+students.... That's a lot of grading.
It also makes it impossible to pace your class. I took a college class with mastery grading but there were only around 20 students in the class. We had to master certain skills on 3 different instruments (clarinet, saxophone, flute). The professor taught all 3 together and we had until the end of the semester to master the skills on all 3 instruments. The thing is that we were adults and the skills on the instruments were pretty.
I can't imagine having to test 143 standards and 150 students for mastery with no time limit. It would be impossible.
It also makes it impossible to pace your class. I took a college class with mastery grading but there were only around 20 students in the class. We had to master certain skills on 3 different instruments (clarinet, saxophone, flute). The professor taught all 3 together and we had until the end of the semester to master the skills on all 3 instruments. The thing is that we were adults and the skills on the instruments were pretty.
I can't imagine having to test 143 standards and 150 students for mastery with no time limit. It would be impossible.
What people don't realize is that mastery learning puts the responsibility to reach mastery on the student. That won't fly with most parents today. Most parents (and I do mean most as in more than half) want someone else to blame when their child doesn't measure up (I have taught hundreds of kids yet I've only met a handfull of parents who think their child is average. They're all special in some way and will shine IF they get the proper education (one tailored for them.)). Mastery learning won't get their child catered to and it won't get their child a higher grade than they deserve. Mastery learning will be rejected for K-12.
There is no way I can manage 150 students all learning a different standard (my standards have pre-requisite material that must be learned first). I just can't. I have 24 students per 50 minute class. Give me two minutes for taking attendance and that gives me 2 minutes per student. It is NOT happening UNLESS my students, suddenly, become responsible for their own educations and even then it would be difficult to do. I would play the part of consultant. This would require some kind of standardized test for each group of standards that must be passed. You'd have to computerize this so that material not mastered would show up on the next test for that student and keep showing up until they do master it. Final grades would be assigned based on how much material was mastered and to which level it was mastered. However, I can GUARANTEE you that parents will hate this. They'd argue that if a student masters all of the material to an 80% level, they deserve an A. They'd aruge that if a student masters 80% of the material to an 80% level, they deserve a B. Grades would have to be assigned by the program not the teacher.
The only way you could manage large classes working towards mastery learning would be to teach the class on computers and let the kids self pace but this doesn't work for kids who are not intrinsically motivated and that would be most of my students. Most of them will treat work time as social time if you let them. I know a teacher whose school tried this with biology. It didn't work. The kids took too long to go through the material. You'd need to do something like make the end of the year the day they're done. They'd have to keep reporting to school until they achieved mastery.
I am kind of curious as to what others consider mastery. Is learing 80% of the material to 80% mastery? (this would be a score of 64% on a test) Is is 100% of 80% of the material or 80% of 100% of the material? I see a lot of argument as to what constitutes mastery and lots of room for parents to argue their child deserves a higher grade.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-10-2012 at 04:20 PM..
What people don't realize is that mastery learning puts the responsibility to reach mastery on the student. That won't fly with most parents today. Most parents (and I do mean most as in more than half) want someone else to blame when their child doesn't measure up (I have taught hundreds of kids yet I've only met a handfull of parents who think their child is average. They're all special in some wayand will shine IF they get the proper education (one tailored for them.)). Mastery learning won't get their child catered to and it won't get their child a higher grade than they deserve. Mastery learning will be rejected for K-12.
One year our Junior Kindergarten teacher said that out of her 44 students (22 AM and 22PM) all but three students had parents that told her, at some point in the first weeks of school, that their child was gifted, super smart, very bright or something similiar. Wow, that would make a crazy bell curve if it were true!
One year our Junior Kindergarten teacher said that out of her 44 students (22 AM and 22PM) all but three students had parents that told her, at some point in the first weeks of school, that their child was gifted, super smart, very bright or something similiar. Wow, that would make a crazy bell curve if it were true!
The number of parents who think their child is gifted is insane. Most kids are average.
I had no idea that so many parents proclaim their kids gifted. Fortunately, my gifted child is my second child so the kindergarten teacher knew me. Dd#2 also attended the preschool and they knew. At one year old, she came in with me when I was enrolling her sister in the preschool and proceeded to do a puzzle that had all the teachers just gushing amazement. Poor dd#1. She's had her sister showing her up since preschool.
The charter school my girls attended is known for their G&T program in grades K-6. The day I enrolled my dd's I stood in line behind a woman who spent half an hour trying to convince them her child is gifted. She took so much time, I missed the 5:00 cut off to get our application in (they were time stamping them with a time clock). You should have seen the look on the woman's face when I told her that dd#2 needed to be in the G&T program. I think I was half believed because I wasn't pushing for both of my kids to be in the program (though they both ended up in the program).
There was one poor girl at the school whose mother kept pushing her into the G&T program. She went from specialist to specialist until she found own who proclaimed her gifted. The poor girl washed out of the G&T program but her mother kept trying to get her put back in. They tried a second time but she just could not keep up. I felt so sorry for that little girl. What must it feel like to know your mother wants a gifted child and you're not.
As to that bell curve, it makes the kind of "bell curve" we see in my school. A ski slope with A's being the most common grade. It amazes me that universities don't seem to realize that grade inflation is rampant at my school. We had 4 validictorians with GPA's of 4.0 last year. That was out of a class of about 150.
I will give you that we have more high fliers. IMO, about the top 20% are A students but high GPA's come out of the water fountain at my school.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-12-2012 at 07:50 AM..
The number of parents who think their child is gifted is insane. Most kids are average.
I had no idea that so many parents proclaim their kids gifted. Fortunately, my gifted child is my second child so the kindergarten teacher knew me. Dd#2 also attended the preschool and they knew. At one year old, she came in with me when I was enrolling her sister in the preschool and proceeded to do a puzzle that had all the teachers just gushing amazement. Poor dd#1. She's had her sister showing her up since preschool.
The charter school my girls attended is known for their G&T program in grades K-6. The day I enrolled my dd's I stood in line behind a woman who spent half an hour trying to convince them her child is gifted. She took so much time, I missed the 5:00 cut off to get our application in (they were time stamping them with a time clock). You should have seen the look on the woman's face when I told her that dd#2 needed to be in the G&T program. I think I was half believed because I wasn't pushing for both of my kids to be in the program (though they both ended up in the program).
There was one poor girl at the school whose mother kept pushing her into the G&T program. She went from specialist to specialist until she found own who proclaimed her gifted. The poor girl washed out of the G&T program but her mother kept trying to get her put back in. They tried a second time but she just could not keep up. I felt so sorry for that little girl. What must it feel like to know your mother wants a gifted child and you're not.
As to that bell curve, it makes the kind of "bell curve" we see in my school. A ski slope with A's being the most common grade. It amazes me that universities don't seem to realize that grade inflation is rampant at my school. We had 4 validictorians with GPA's of 4.0 last year. That was out of a class of about 150.
I will give you that we have more high fliers. IMO, about the top 20% are A students but high GPA's come out of the water fountain at my school.
Actually I think I might know why this is happening.
Average IQ scores are going up (Flynn effect), somewhere around 10 points in the last 30 years. So it maybe that kids are smarter (an average of 10 points on an exponential scale is a lot) than their parents. And since everyone thinks they are above average in terms of intelligence and thye think their kids are smarter than they are, than their kids must be gifted.
What people don't realize is that the average IQ level is increasing, so their kids are not gifted compared to their peers.
Of course I have no proof of the reasoning by parentsbut I have thought about it quite a bit and the numbers work out.
Last year I had 45 elementary students (two classes). Out of that number, 14 were pulled for the advanced academics program (GT). That's a fairly large percentage.
What people don't realize is that mastery learning puts the responsibility to reach mastery on the student. That won't fly with most parents today. Most parents (and I do mean most as in more than half) want someone else to blame when their child doesn't measure up (I have taught hundreds of kids yet I've only met a handfull of parents who think their child is average. They're all special in some way and will shine IF they get the proper education (one tailored for them.)).Mastery learning won't get their child catered to and it won't get their child a higher grade than they deserve. Mastery learning will be rejected for K-12.
There is no way I can manage 150 students all learning a different standard (my standards have pre-requisite material that must be learned first). I just can't. I have 24 students per 50 minute class. Give me two minutes for taking attendance and that gives me 2 minutes per student. It is NOT happening UNLESS my students, suddenly, become responsible for their own educations and even then it would be difficult to do. I would play the part of consultant. This would require some kind of standardized test for each group of standards that must be passed. You'd have to computerize this so that material not mastered would show up on the next test for that student and keep showing up until they do master it. Final grades would be assigned based on how much material was mastered and to which level it was mastered. However, I can GUARANTEE you that parents will hate this. They'd argue that if a student masters all of the material to an 80% level, they deserve an A. They'd aruge that if a student masters 80% of the material to an 80% level, they deserve a B. Grades would have to be assigned by the program not the teacher.
The only way you could manage large classes working towards mastery learning would be to teach the class on computers and let the kids self pace but this doesn't work for kids who are not intrinsically motivated and that would be most of my students. Most of them will treat work time as social time if you let them. I know a teacher whose school tried this with biology. It didn't work. The kids took too long to go through the material. You'd need to do something like make the end of the year the day they're done. They'd have to keep reporting to school until they achieved mastery.
I am kind of curious as to what others consider mastery. Is learing 80% of the material to 80% mastery? (this would be a score of 64% on a test) Is is 100% of 80% of the material or 80% of 100% of the material? I see a lot of argument as to what constitutes mastery and lots of room for parents to argue their child deserves a higher grade.
I expect many parents will have difficulty with this new progress report, but actually the schooling is becoming more catered to each child. We have to show that we are not just teaching to the middle of the class. Those who already "get it" at the beginning of the unit have to have their lessons extended. Those who don't "get it" need to continue to be taught the standard until they do. This year I will have 56 elementary students between two classes. Pretty much 28 students for each 50 min. social studies, reading, and writing block. I will teach all of the standards. For those who already meet the standard, they will have to go beyond. Those who don't meet the standard will be continually retaught and assessed. I admit it will be a lot to manage and last year the planning and record keeping for the enrichment and remediation was already becoming overwhelming.
You're still assigning a % and a grade to the level of mastery. We have done away with that through 6th grade. The parents and teachers will have to stop thinking about grades and %.
I expect many parents will have difficulty with this new progress report, but actually the schooling is becoming more catered to each child. We have to show that we are not just teaching to the middle of the class. Those who already "get it" at the beginning of the unit have to have their lessons extended. Those who don't "get it" need to continue to be taught the standard until they do. This year I will have 56 elementary students between two classes. Pretty much 28 students for each 50 min. social studies, reading, and writing block. I will teach all of the standards. For those who already meet the standard, they will have to go beyond. Those who don't meet the standard will be continually retaught and assessed. I admit it will be a lot to manage and last year the planning and record keeping for the enrichment and remediation was already becoming overwhelming.
You're still assigning a % and a grade to the level of mastery. We have done away with that through 6th grade. The parents and teachers will have to stop thinking about grades and %.
The problem here is that you're making the assumption that a student will want to be rewarded with higher requirements for getting the work early. At the high school level, they consider that punishment. Kids who get the material fast don't want more work because they got it faster. When allowed to self pace, most will pace slower because they think they will be required to learn less. In elementary school, kids tend to do what they're told to do by the teacher. They haven't figured out that if they drag their feet, they're required to do less yet.
I know a high school teacher whose school tried mastery level learning using computer programs so that the class could be tailored to each student. What happened is very little progress. They ended up assigning a grade based on a composite of the percent of the material finished and the percent mastery just to light a fire under the students and that didn't work well. Instead of spending her time helping the kids who needed help, she spent her time policing internet usage during class.
Mastery learning works for motivated learners. It doesn't work for unmotivated learners. At the high school level, we have a lot of those.
I have a couple of questions on how you "grade". What levels do you use? What is considered mastery? Do you differentiate between students who have barely mastered something and those who have mastered it well? How would you suggest I apply this in chemistry with 143 core content expectations? From what I've seen, mastery models usually mean kids have met some minimum requirement not that they've actually mastered the material. When discussed WRT high school, I've seen 80% thrown around as the definition of mastery. That's, currently, a B-. What's the incentive to learn more once mastery has been achieved?
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-13-2012 at 12:52 AM..
Actually I think I might know why this is happening.
Average IQ scores are going up (Flynn effect), somewhere around 10 points in the last 30 years. So it maybe that kids are smarter (an average of 10 points on an exponential scale is a lot) than their parents. And since everyone thinks they are above average in terms of intelligence and thye think their kids are smarter than they are, than their kids must be gifted.
What people don't realize is that the average IQ level is increasing, so their kids are not gifted compared to their peers.
Of course I have no proof of the reasoning by parentsbut I have thought about it quite a bit and the numbers work out.
My personal take is that parents, today, invest their own self esteem in their children's accomplishments. To feel good about themselves, their child MUST be gifted. It's their claim to fame. What they don't realize is that every other parent does it too. I think we just invest more of ourselves in each child since we now have fewer of them and any time you concentrate on something you develop a myopic view of it. And then there's the simple fact that we tend to see that which fits our paradigms and ignore that which doesn't even when it slaps us in the face. If I believe my child is special (and who doesn't these days), I'm going to see the special things about my child and ignore the typical things. It is typical for children to do some things ahead of the curve and others behind. Human nature would have parents who are looking for signs their child is gifted seeing the ones where they are ahead and dismissing the ones where the child is behind. I think we're just very near sighted when we come to our kids and/or we have our own self esteem wrapped up in our children's accomplishments and can't see past our noses.
And a quick google search reveals that the Flynn effect (wasn't familiar with it) isn't ongoing but, likely, is stopping in developed nations. It appears to be linked to better nutrition, better test taking skills and a more stimulating environment but once those things are in place for two generations, the effect would be dimished. So, the Flynn effect likely isn't the issue here. There is no reason to believe that kids today would have, significantly, higher IQ's than their parents. In developing nations, as health increases and availability of education increases, you could see a significant difference between parents and children but once those things are in place, you shouldn't see a continued increase. So this only applies to populations where the parents were lacking nutrition and educational opportunties. So it explains why my kids both have IQ's significantly higher than mine (I suffered from malnutrition as a young child among other things) but does not predict that their children's IQ's will be higher than theirs. In fact, genetics says that their children's IQ will be closer to average than theirs.
Also, average IQ isn't increasing. While it may be true that when parents provide a better environment for their children than they had that thier IQ's are higher than that of the parents, there is a correlation between IQ and birth rates with birth rates being higher among lower IQ parents and not all parents provide a better environement for their kids than they had. The Flynn effect is pretty much a one time boost that occurs when nutrition and education increase for the children. There is no reason to believe it would continue over time.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-13-2012 at 12:47 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
That's a lot of grading.
