Why don't women support female candidates? (racist, Hillary Clinton, independent, McCain)

[Elmonellie]

Originally Posted by UB50

You know, gender discrimination is very subtle these days, mostly because it is illegal.

In the "good old days," male bosses would just come out and tell you you couldn't have the job because you were a woman. It was blatent discrimination. It was legal back then.

It's funny, but women still don't advance -- and when they do, they usually are offered less money than a man in the same position, even when working for the same company. I've seen this happen over and over again.

What typically happens is that (if you keep the same job for a lot of years with the same company), you'll see Harry get a better job with higher wages and they'll tell you "you need to pay your dues." Then you'll see Bob move up, then Juan, then Tupac. All the time you slave away doing a fabulous job (because they tell you that and they tell you how much they value you). In the end, a lot of years go by and you are still in the same place while Harry's salary is 10x higher than yours and Bob's salary is 8x higher than yours, and Juan and Tupac are making 5x more than you.

Is it any wonder that more and more women are opting to work for themselves these days? It's really the only way to level the playing field.

Anyway, gender discrimination is alive and well in Corporate America. You only need to look at how few women there are in CEO positions at Fortune 500 companies, in the Senate, in Congress, in positions of power across America. You also need to remember that more than 1/2 of college grads are women. If things were fair, over 1/2 of all CEOs would be women too.

Also women make up a much larger segment of the population than blacks and other minorities do. Our population is over 50% female. It's under 20% black.

I don't agree with any of your points.

Women don't "get ahead" at the same rate as their male counterparts GENERALLY because they take time out to have kids, come back to the workforce, don't spend as many hours at work, etc.

The executive women I know progress the same as their male counterparts(all things being equal re: talent, intelligence, people skills) if they play the corporate game and don't drop out for years at a time or think they only have to work a 40 hour week, sluff work off onto others because they have to go to a parent conference at 3:30 every other week, etc.

All things are not fair. American CEO's are never going to be equally divided between men and women because the majority of women will not do what it takes to get to that position. Most women want to be mothers and take time off to do that. You may think that they are penalized for it and they are. It's reality and the choices are there to be made.

[UB50]

Originally Posted by Elmonellie

I don't agree with any of your points.

Women don't "get ahead" at the same rate as their male counterparts GENERALLY because they take time out to have kids, come back to the workforce, don't spend as many hours at work, etc.

The executive women I know progress the same as their male counterparts(all things being equal re: talent, intelligence, people skills) if they play the corporate game and don't drop out for years at a time or think they only have to work a 40 hour week, sluff work off onto others because they have to go to a parent conference at 3:30 every other week, etc.

Let me put it this way: Things have been fairer for younger women. It also depends on what industry you choose to work in and where (regionally) you work in the USA.

I started working in the 1970s and things have changed a lot since then. I can really only speak for my age group but a lot of us never stopped working for kids or marriage and didn't fare as well financially as our male peers.

Most large corporations have standardized salaries for people in certain positions. The differences are usually in the rate of promotion or your ability to "climb the corporate ladder." Does your company have many women at the VP level? And is it a male-dominated or female-dominated industry, or is it equally-dominated?

[Sunvixen]

Originally Posted by Linson

what i dont understand is why you're unable to think even one step ahead of yourself in order to cover your own BS.

if you would be honest and accept your initial post for what it is: pro-hillary, anti obama desparation, your coment would have made sense in that context. but you go on to say that your post is not intended to sway opinions for or against any candidate - but in that context, why would you even bring up, "for the record", the fact that black men were given the right to vote before women.

i am speaking to you with 100% honesty. i am speaking to you the same as i would if we were face to face. My real (last) name is Linson. why dont you be honest. what you sought was corroberation that more women should blindly vote for clinton on the basis of her gender.

i am giving you the benifit of the doubt that you are not delusional enough to actually wish to enter an arguement that the historical suffering and injustice put upon women in this country even compares to that of African Americans.

Dearest Linson,

You need to calm down. I AM being honest.

I am NOT going to "accept" anything that is just not so. You cannot TELL me what is in MY mind. Stop being so rude. I already explained the other comment, please go read it again.

FOR THE RECORD I am NOT a Hillary supporter. I am also NOT an Obama supporter, nor a McCain supporter.

What part of UNDECIDED did you not understand?

"MY" candidate is no longer in the race. I now must wait and pick from candidates I do not really care for. Unless somebody else more promising jumps into the race.

Is there anything ELSE you feel you need to TELL ME ABOUT MY OWN THOUGHTS?


I'm not really sure why you needed to point out your last name, but whatever makes you happy.


Also, I see you cut off the part about the Beagles from my post. Why don't YOU just admit what this is really about!!!???...that you hate Beagles! You are OBVIOUSLY a TERRIER supporter...come on...just be honest and ACCEPT IT!! I am speaking with 100% honesty, what did Beagles ever do to you? You obviously hate the Hounds breeds, just admit it! FOR THE RECORD, I like Beagles and Terriers equally, but I'm sure you won't believe that either.


Now do you SEE how stupid it is to assume you know what someone else is thinking? Naughty, naughty!




As for your last paragraph, I will remind you to please try to keep to thread topic and stop trying to spin things into a race war. I wasn't clear about it's meaning anyway. Were you saying that people should vote for a black person simply because, as you said, they have suffered more than women have? I honestly did not understand why you threw that in, but if you feel you simply MUST discuss race issues with me, pleaseeither start a DIFFERENT thread about race relations or point me to one that already exists. I will happily come and answer any questions you would like to ask me. Have a blessed day!

[Sunvixen]

Originally Posted by jessica1000

# 3 --- Yes to working and joining the workforce and with regards to gender discrimination---very low.

a) Past discrimination led many women to not consider certain jobs or majors at colleges and hence a lost of talent and this pattern continuous even though discrimination has declined. This is a even a larger problem in african american men today. Of course, the recent african immigrants don't experience this problem as much as compared to native african american.

b) Women simply aren't as aggressive as men when lobbying for a job and don't overestate their resumes compared to men. In addition, women are more likely to believe that they 'don't have the necessary qualification' for a certain job or post and hence increasing their chances of failure.
Women are also less likely to lobby for pay raise and promotion---once hired---compared to their male counterparts. This of course is changing and will take time.

d) Not enough women CEO's to encourage or provide support for women.

E) Well, let's not exclude pure gender discrimination.



#7-----------No, we aren't voting aganist hillary in order to please 'our guys' or to win 'men's approvel'. However, Yes to us pleasing our men and yes to our men pleasing us.


Well. I offer these to articles that I read recently to prove my point that young women simply get attacked by certain older women for not voting for a women candidate.

Hilary Rosen: "I Am Not for Hillary Because She is a Woman - it's Because I Am" - Politics on The Huffington Post


#8)---------- Yes, we don't like certain older men who try to tell us how to act.
#9)----------Yes, we also don't like certain older women who try to tell us how to vote.


Well, we young women,at least I am not the kind of woman that would go back to the 1950 and 1960's era. I don't like Phyllis Schlafly and frankly find her to be half crazy. The same goes for 'certain old men' like Mr. Rush.(and with his conservative attitude I believe the only date he gets these days would be with his own right hand).


Now, with regards to older women. We young women don't want to be called 'anti-progressive' and traitors by certain old women group just because we aren't supporting hillary. The obession with breaking the glass ceiling(of having a women candidate) frankly is not what we found to be as important as other issus(like Iraq war).
Of course, there are people who are supporting her because they believe she has more experience and hence will make good judgement than obama-----good for them. I have no problem, as long as they or anyone don't attack women supporting obama as traitor or as they don't call us 'scraedy-cat bimbos'.

Robin Morgan tells young feminist Obama supporters we’re scaredy-cat bimbos : Unsprung on Offsprung.com (broken link)

We are attacked by old feminist if you say gender gap is frankly too small and continous to shrink. We are attacked by conservative and old men, if we suggest that there is still 'some' discrimination in the workforce.
If we decide stay at home and raise kids-----attacked by old feminist for 'trying to hard to please men' and ignornig everything that they worked so hard to get for young women. And if you Decide to work------attack by conservatives for ignoring family and hence causing the decline of america(did I mention we also eat babies according to Pat Roberston).
We are aware of problems like date-rape and 'real' sexual harrasments in workplace----of course this drives conservative crazy, who blame it all on women. At the same time, when someone of us would say that we don't mind men(at our work) looking at our cleavage or don't mind them making 'certain' sexual comment/joke, we are called stupid young women trying to please men and ignoring past struggles and demeaning women.

Of course, god forbid that we care about our makeup, hairstyle and clothes(revealing one's included), both the conservative and old feminist will just jump on us.




P.S--------Women can vote for anyone they want but there is no need to get b*t**y.

I edited the HECK outta your post to save space!

Okay...I agree with b,d,e. As for a, why do you think that is?

As for #8 and 9, thank you for clearing that up for me! For some reason I assumed you were talking about Hillary and McCain.

As for the BOLD areas...hmmmm.

While I am neither considered young nor old, I am also neither a liberal nor a conservative. However, I know plenty of each, and at least as far as the conservatives I know are concerned, that does not apply. THEY would blame liberals, while I would say it's the "PC POLICE." This politically correct mentality that has taken over much of the country often lacks of common-sense (understatement) And it is that PC squad that has gone so far as to make men worry whether they should hold a door for a woman or whether a hug between young children is considered sexual harassment. Who ARE these people, anyway???

Perhaps when YOU think of a conservative, you imagine John ********? He is nothing like the people I know who label themselves conservatives. Many conservatives like cleavage! Conservatives, at least many in SE Michigan, are people who people who (IMO anyway) are usually proud of America and believe she is the greatest country on earth and believe that OVERALL, our way of life is superior to others. They do not like to see her knocked, but on ISSUES, oh...knock away! The people i know are hard working and do not like seeing all their tax money go to the government. They find it funny that many anti-conservatives complain about the government, yet at every turn, support more and more government in the form of tax increases and more "programs". Maybe it is due to the fact that Michigan has turned into a tax, tax, tax state, but I must admit am beginning to see their point.

Anyway, that is the first time I have ever stuck up for a conservative! I better not tell them , they will start thinking I am on their side!

Thanks for your reply

[Elmonellie]

Originally Posted by UB50

Let me put it this way: Things have been fairer for younger women. It also depends on what industry you choose to work in and where (regionally) you work in the USA.

I started working in the 1970s and things have changed a lot since then. I can really only speak for my age group but a lot of us never stopped working for kids or marriage and didn't fare as well financially as our male peers.

Most large corporations have standardized salaries for people in certain positions. The differences are usually in the rate of promotion or your ability to "climb the corporate ladder." Does your company have many women at the VP level? And is it a male-dominated or female-dominated industry, or is it equally-dominated?

I'm self employed now, but I was in corp america working in the entertainment industry in LA. Talent and drive seemed to be the key factors in getting to the top of that heap, I saw the same traits in both men and women that succeeded. My husband now works for a huge multi-national company and there are few women at the vp or above level. They kind of get stuck at the Director level....the ones I know of have taken leaves for child rearing and after that didn't put in the 80 hour weeks it took to get to the next level.

[Linson]

Originally Posted by Sunvixen

Dearest Linson,

i am perfectly calm. the tone of my post was perfectly calm. you took the liberty of changing my every other word to bold print, making my post seem much more annimated than it is.

you're NOT being honest. not with me, maybe not with yourself.

i KNOW you're not going to accept it. and, believe me, i do not get a thrill out of being so rude, but i can see right through your lies. scary isnt it?

you explained your other coment??? yeah, you explained it as just a matter of fact, in passing. like me adding that the Chevy Camaro has been historically faster than the Ford Mustang to an otherwise unrelated topic. it doesnt make sense. but your historical comment, within the context of what your OP was: a call for more women to support hillary, it does make sense. for you to say you added that comment for no apparent reason at all - makes no sense. if it doesnt make sense, it isnt true.

on the same topic, i have deleted or not responded to anything you have said about Beagles and Hounds, ect. because it is irrellevant banter.

i guess, the part where you call for more women to support hillary clinton on the basis of gender.

dont let your thoughts betray you. be honest with yourself.

well, Sunvixen, if that is your real name, i want you to know that i am being as real with you as a person can be. i wont say anything that i wouldnt say if we were face to face.

umm hmm... so your original post had nothing to do with race vs. gender. it seemed to my like your point was that since blacks are voting for Barrack Obama, women should be supporting hillary clinton. lets take a look at it:

.................................................. ..........................................

[Elmonellie]

Originally Posted by Sunvixen

I have been listening to a lot of talk radio lately and I keep hearing women, usually young-ish, call in and make blanket statements like "I just don't think we are ready for a women president" or "I would never vote for a female president." This goes beyond "just" Hillary. But since she is the first viable female candidate, I thought I would post it here.


Have young women lost all confidence in themselves? If you don't happen to like Hillary, that's one thing, but that isn't what I am talking about. I had to look at the calendar and make SURE it was 2008.


I cannot say I have ever heard a black person state "I would never vote for a black president."


I'm just curious as to which radio programs had women calling in and saying that they would never vote for a woman for president. I'd really love to know so I could tune in and here that point of view.

I, myself, have never heard a woman say anything so (imho) dumb. That's not to say I don't believe that some women do say such things.... Anyway, pls share.

[godofthunder]

Originally Posted by Sunvixen

I have been listening to a lot of talk radio lately and I keep hearing women, usually young-ish, call in and make blanket statements like "I just don't think we are ready for a women president" or "I would never vote for a female president." This goes beyond "just" Hillary. But since she is the first viable female candidate, I thought I would post it here.


Have young women lost all confidence in themselves? If you don't happen to like Hillary, that's one thing, but that isn't what I am talking about. I had to look at the calendar and make SURE it was 2008.


I cannot say I have ever heard a black person state "I would never vote for a black president."


I know plenty of women older than myself, from ALL walks of life, of all races, in their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s who are completely open to voting for a female president. What I want to know is: What is happening to the younger ones?



________________________________________

And for the record (I cannot find the thread this relates to but...)

Black men got the right to vote before white women did.

I do think that America could use a woman President so that many of these childish preconceptions can die as they should. But I think Hillary just isn't the best choice to be that woman. I also don't think she'd make a very effective US President because she has made so many enemies with so many sectors of the US populace. Between that and leaning so heavily upon the political machine created by and for her husband -- who has cheated on her repeatedly -- Hillary just doesn't make logical sense, especially if you're trying to send a good message about how far women have come.

What you want to convey: "Self-reliant, self-made, self-repecting, non-dependant and just as competant as any man, and above all else, does not need a man to bring her success." Hillary might be all of those things, but her history and circumstances paint the opposite picture. Politics is often more about perceptions than it is about facts.

[texdav]

I am not going to vote for hillary clinton. That being said I doubt that she would get the critiism for her toughness if she was a male.I also think she made a mistake in using her being female at times.She just seems to want it both ways.The thing that I can't get over is the people who loved her before the elction are now saying how evil she is. Kind of the worm turns on itself.

[UB50]

Originally Posted by Elmonellie

I'm self employed now, but I was in corp america working in the entertainment industry in LA. Talent and drive seemed to be the key factors in getting to the top of that heap, I saw the same traits in both men and women that succeeded. My husband now works for a huge multi-national company and there are few women at the vp or above level. They kind of get stuck at the Director level....the ones I know of have taken leaves for child rearing and after that didn't put in the 80 hour weeks it took to get to the next level.

I'm in LA too. I think entertainment, for the most part, is an equal opportunity area. But if you look at certain parts of it, like sound recording and engineering, you'll find it's predominantly male and very hard for a woman to even get a foot in the door. There are more women in film. I worked in entertainment for a few years (it was a "break" from what I usually did).