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I read history in chronological order from the beginning, from the beginning, and work my way to the present.
Most schools teach history in backwards chronological order. And of course they have their reasons, and I don't blame them. I would do the same.
But the concept of western civilization is backwards-looking and will prove to be confined in time.
In my view, the father of western civilization is Charlemagne, not some Roman or Greek, which are ancient Mediterranean/Mesopotamian (Near East) phenomena in their heyday, certainly not western European. The western Roman Empire was but a fraction of that world and hardly the most important one, in fact they were the latecomers (like Greece was a latecomer to contemporary industrialization), the barbarians, and its "fall" was barely noticed in most of the "advanced" world at the time, truly on the margins of civilization. The west as we know it today came into being centuries later.
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Greece IS the west. There is/was no WEST without Greece. Greece was not, is not middle east. It was not a phenomena. It was the REAL McCoy, the real thing. There was nothing barbaric compared to anything else at that time with either Rome or Greece.
Again, to say "the father of western civilization is Charlemagne" makes anyone wonder why you come out and say such crazy things.
If you're looking for a father of civilized western Europe after the fall of Rome an event which the whole world notices still today since the Roman Empire covered a huge area even the middle east and is not insignificant fact as you state, look at the fall of Constantinople. Perhaps, you can find that father figure or event that you so seem to need. Sure, the "Holy Roman Emperor" Charlemagne played a major role at his time but he only borrowed from the greatness of others. Without Rome or Greece he would be NOTHING to speak of today. The west, western european culture does not start with him. He was no father but perhaps a great great x 1,000 grandchild of ideas that the ancient Greeks stated and practiced that long ago.
Last edited by WildWestDude; 07-15-2012 at 12:22 PM..
Perhaps you should think a little more about the meaning of the word "cradle" and the meaning of the words "Germanic tribes". Charlemagne, without a doubt, was largely responsible for the foundation upon which Central Europe, as we now know it, was ultimately built. Starting with Charlemagne, however, it is silly to talk anymore about Germanic tribes. There was little that was "tribal" about him. Charlemagne was a "nation builder." Both France and Germany trace large parts of their national identity back to him. Despite this, however, he saw himself to be in the tradition of Roman culture. He did not provide a "cradle" for western civilisation. On the contrary, Greco-Roman culture and the Christian religion were his cradle...so to speak. He tried to preserve what he could of Roman culture and knowledge and restore order to a Europe that had descended into chaos after the fall of the West Roman Empire. BTW, one of his titles was "Holy Roman Emporer." Why do you suppose he took on that title if he did not see himself in the tradition of Roman civilisation? Why do you suppose that Latin remained the language of all western scholars until well into modern times?
Agree, well said.
And that is the greatest thing that I like about GREECE. You know where things started and why they started. There is a reason why we are here today doing the things we do. The Acropolis still stands to show us the way even in this time of "crisis"
Last edited by WildWestDude; 07-15-2012 at 12:51 PM..
I am a bit tired about all the Greek bashing going on the last few years because of the economic crisis.
There are many positive things about such an old country that you hear all the time from tourists.
What is your story/view/opinion/experience about Greece and its people. Please leave any bashing for another thread although some no so favorable things are open for conversation.
Obviously I can only speak with my voice...from my experiences and I have nothing but good memories. Since 1984 I have been to Greece several times...if it were in my means I would live part time there and part time in the U.S. Of the people I can only say that I have enjoyed them immensely and they have tolerated and suffered me...theugly American. You know, sometimes we Americans think that we know everything...about everything, when in fact, sometimes we know very little about a great many things. But I have loved them and I hope that in their turn they have loved me as well.
Concerning their cuisine...yes, I fell in love with that as well. Their geography, their islands...their beautiful and captivating islands with those sugar sand beaches, their precious loggerhead turtles, and their cliffside tavernas; yes, I love them and I miss them.
Enough said, I miss Greece still and always will; everything about her...the good, the bad, and the ugly!
Obviously I can only speak with my voice...from my experiences and I have nothing but good memories. Since 1984 I have been to Greece several times...if it were in my means I would live part time there and part time in the U.S. Of the people I can only say that I have enjoyed them immensely and they have tolerated and suffered me...theugly American. You know, sometimes we Americans think that we know everything...about everything, when in fact, sometimes we know very little about a great many things. But I have loved them and I hope that in their turn they have loved me as well.
Concerning their cuisine...yes, I fell in love with that as well. Their geography, their islands...their beautiful and captivating islands with those sugar sand beaches, their precious loggerhead turtles, and their cliffside tavernas; yes, I love them and I miss them.
Enough said, I miss Greece still and always will; everything about her...the good, the bad, and the ugly!
I lived and worked in Greece for quite some time many years ago. Helped put together the financing for the highway from Athens to Thessaloniki . Traveled the entire country and dozens of islands. I love the people, the culture and the food.
Nothing but good memories. I will return one day soon.
Love the islands been to live on three islands over five visits. Kos Crete and Corfu.. each have their own beauty, most of all its the Greek people I liked and why weve been back often. we also stayed on the mainland too but prefer the islands... its laid back and no one harrasses you to visit their shop or eat in their restaurants, something I hate about foreign holidays is being hassalled and annoyed while walking along the streets .
I've bee there twice and loved it. Loved the food, history, people, architecture, climate, ocean... really, there was nothing I disliked about it and would go back again.
I've heard pretty much all bad things about Athens, but I've never heard much of Thessaloniki? Similar to Athens, or completely different? How is the vibe in Thessaloniki?
Hey, I'm a Sicilian-American, so I like Greece and the Greeks. I've been there one time. I like being able to speak a country's language, so I haven't gone back. I like the weather, the scenery, the food, the laid-back vibe, and SOME of the people.
Athens - one should go at least once, to walk in the steps of history. They have a newish 2001 kick-ass international airport at Spata (suburb) and a nice metro system (some lines), which now goes into the airport. People might get pissed, but Athens is not Rome. There is a lot LESS to see. If you see these, you've seen Athens:
- the Acropolis
- the Plaka, the old town
- the National Archaeological Museum
- Syntagma Square and the changing of the guard
- a few of the nice gardens or squares
Better stuff:
a) the islands, they are either separate (Crete, Rhodes) or in chains (the Cyclades or the Sporades). Everyone knows the Cyclades for Mykonos or Santorini, but other islands such as Naxos and Paros are less stomped-on and even nicer. The Sporades are actually greener. Skiathos, in the Sporades, is my favorite of all the islands I've been to.
b) the Peloponnesus - the west coast of Greece is supposed to be nice, having seen pictures and read about it
c) Corfu and the Adriatic islands - also supposed to be nice; here, you can see how closely related Greece is to Italy and the Adriatic side looks way different from the islands like Mykonos and Santorini.
Zakynthos, on the Peloponnesus - who wouldn't want to go here? Here's the postcard picture:
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I love Greece and its people...
