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Old 07-27-2018, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Russia
2,216 posts, read 1,022,468 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Do you think Russia is eventually going to cave and side with the West? Or does Russia have too much pride for that?

Are the days of conflict between East and West numbered?
We have already been friends with the West and the US, especially closely.
So far, the country has not been fully restored.
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Old 07-27-2018, 03:31 PM
 
Location: Russia
2,216 posts, read 1,022,468 times
Reputation: 946
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Do you think Russia is eventually going to cave and side with the West? Or does Russia have too much pride for that?

Are the days of conflict between East and West numbered?
And what do you mean "to stand on the side of the West"?
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Old 07-27-2018, 04:08 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,567 posts, read 28,665,617 times
Reputation: 25160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turist View Post
And what do you mean "to stand on the side of the West"?
Become completely democratic, have free and fair elections with an open market economy and become a NATO member.
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Old 07-27-2018, 04:37 PM
DKM
 
Location: California
6,767 posts, read 3,858,538 times
Reputation: 6690
I have family from Belgorod oblast. There is absolutely nothing distinguishing it from Kharkov Oblast. You would never know that one is supposedly a higher standard of living from the other. One has Lenin statues and one doesn't...
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Old 07-27-2018, 04:55 PM
 
26,787 posts, read 22,549,184 times
Reputation: 10038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
I see what you're saying Erasure but I look at systems the world over and corruption is rife in all of them. About all the citzenry can do is learn to love it like we have here in America. If Russia were to change, do a 180 to "democracy" and American/Western style freedoms ot whatever would that system be any different? I daresay it would be worse. We all know the story Animal Farm don't we?

I can tell you things about the incompetence brought on by politcians hooking up their buddies with cushy jobs that these people are utterly clueless to supervise. I can tell you about what theoretically be considered criminal incompetence that reslts in a drain of billions from budgets all over my region. The people who are responsible have suffered no consequences. I can tell you about the corrupt practices of contractors, consultants and the abuse of taxpayers by endless stooges at the public feeding troughs all through this country.
Well how should I make the long story short the best way possible?
Let's skip the "West" part, and talk specifically about the US and Russia.
See, in the US the capital ( that rules the country) was growing slowly, through couple of centuries, while changing hands and going through new laws and adjustments, by the way of trials and errors, moving every time forward and constantly looking for improvements.
So the legal base that was developed with time, at least gives an idea where the legality stops and corruption begins. Not to mention that "capital" does not always have the negative connotations in the US, keeping in mind that some people accumulated it as a result of their talents, while creating great companies, that did a lot of good for the country.

In Russia all mentioned above is not a case.

If you will look back in recent history, everything that this country has achieved, was achieved through Stalin's reforms, through brutal COLLECTIVE labor, ( often penal labor,) through brilliancy of some technically-inclined minds, that didn't get much in return, other than their people's recognition and pride for their country.
Then here comes one day, when few on top ( basically appointed by the West) are telling to the rest of population; "Now all these factories, all these oil and metal industries you and your grandfathers have built, are going to be pocketed by us. We know better how to manage them, we know better how to get profits; the rest of you need to shut up and to comply."
Now who were these people exactly? Were they great lawyers, knowing the word of law better than anyione else, capable of creating the new legal base for the country - the kind that would have benefitted it in the long run? Or were they great minds capable of creating new hi-tech companies, benefitting the country yet again? None of it. Just a bunch of thugs, shaking hands with the West.
All they were capable of, was "managing" the natural resources of Russia, selling them, pocketing the profits, stashing them away in Western banks/offshore accounts, and then investing some back into the industries they considered "profitable." (As long as this would have brought profits in trade with the West that is.)
Sounds like a far-fetch story? But that's exactly what happened, if you read about all the the "privatization schemes" in Russia back in the nineties.

So essentually, corruption is the very foundation of current Russian state; it's born out of corruption, sort of of like Aphrodite is born out of a sea-foam.
And of course people that ended up on top of the country are writing the laws intended to benefit them first of all, yet they are the very people who "try to fight the corruption."

How do you fight the sea-foam you are born from? How do you even draw the line between what's corrupt and what's not any longer?

And that's the essential difference between the US and Russia in this case.

Quote:
If Russia were richer there'd just be more pigs at the trough.
They are already all there, time to reap the harvest

Quote:
I just read this monrning about 2 lawyers the FSB is after, they were stealing from ROSCOSMOS. 1 is in custody, the other is in hiding. Who knows, maybe it's just window dressing or maybe they're really trying. I do doubt that with such pathetic efforts they'll get no where in the end though. It would take Joseph Stalin himself to even put a dent in it most likely.
That's the TRUE reason why Stalin was voted "the greatest Russian" in Russian history during the TV poll few years ago.
This was the TRUE meaning behind the signal the Russians were sending to their government; NOT that they were missing Gulag.
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Old 07-27-2018, 05:02 PM
 
26,787 posts, read 22,549,184 times
Reputation: 10038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turist View Post
Well, first of all, the law is still under discussion, it is still far from ratification. The fact that the age will be increased is most likely a fact. Sadness? I don't know, maybe sad, maybe not. However, in social networks carefully inflated hysterics, of course.There's always a tantrum about one or the other.But hysteria in social networks.the thing is very interesting, there and ends regardless of whether the problem is solved or not. Yesterday boiled thousands of messages, and the day after tomorrow silence)) how so? ))) As for the need for this law, it is likely that it is needed. Let's see what form it will be. Life expectancy is growing, more and more pensioners, plus the "demographic pit".Everything is very difficult in this regard. I think that in the end, this law will have a positive impact on the amount of pension and life expectancy.
That's what PutinTV told you?

Dear god, I have already enough of Putinbots on Russian sites to deal with, do I have to deal with them here as well?
Really?
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Old 07-27-2018, 05:05 PM
DKM
 
Location: California
6,767 posts, read 3,858,538 times
Reputation: 6690
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Do you think Russia is eventually going to cave and side with the West? Or does Russia have too much pride for that?

Are the days of conflict between East and West numbered?
The West continues to be remote in terms of values and legal and administrative system standards which are ill-suited to the specific nature of an authoritarian regime. So the answer is no as long as Putin stays in power.
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Old 07-27-2018, 05:14 PM
 
26,787 posts, read 22,549,184 times
Reputation: 10038
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Do you think Russia is eventually going to cave and side with the West? Or does Russia have too much pride for that?

Are the days of conflict between East and West numbered?
Russia already "caved in" and sided with the West in the 90ies.
However as it turned out to be, the West needed more than just "siding" with it.
What it wanted as it turned out, was total dominance and destruction of any independence of Russian state in economic and geopolitical sense of it.
Do you think Russians will want to "side with the West" again, after this particular experience?
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Old 07-27-2018, 09:11 PM
 
26,787 posts, read 22,549,184 times
Reputation: 10038
Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
And what Eastern Europe, the middle east and Latin America didn't experience similar levels of stress?
No. Not comparably to Russians that is, whose life is far more unpredictable.


Quote:
So you are telling me that Russian men have/had it harder than all the other non western countries?
Yes, but "harder" can be used in a different sense of this word. If you'll look at Central Africa for example - they have it much harder in the physical sense of it, but then you can see they don't live long as the result of it. Yet some other non-western countries fair better in terms of the stress level, since there "Allah takes care of everything," and that's what they greatly rely upon.
So Russia is at the more peculiar stage - where it's an industrialized nation, and people are trying to keep up with certain standards of living, but since the life is constantly unpredictable, it hits them hard in the process.


Quote:
There is no need to make excuses, this is embarrassing!
Well try to live their life, then you'll be more qualified to judge them.


Quote:
Russia is supposed to be this great industrialized power yet the men there only live as long as sub-Saharan Africans.
Industrialization does not always come as the result of a great prosperity.
Sometimes it comes at a deadly price, as it was a case in Russia. ( Think of Stalin's years of industrialization, and "collectivization" in these terms.)

Quote:
Also WWII ended 73 years ago.
I didn't say that wars were the ONLY source of stress for Russians, did I?
After the second world war ( which followed after the first one and then prolonged civil war, Russians were able to catch a breath ( after yet another wave of repressions) by the 60ies, and it was probably the most peaceful and prosperous period of their lives - the 60ies and 70ies ( if not to count shortages here and there.) Then the government ( yet again) didn't implement the necessary reforms, in spite of all the troubling signs, and the next roller-coaster caught up with population -the "perestroyka," the dissipation of the country, the brutal "economic reforms," the war in Chechnya, the defaults.

Quote:
Also the highest life expectancy for men in Russia is in Muslim Ingushetia at 78.58 years, compared to Novgorod oblast at 63.86 years. So please stop with the excuses.
You don't understand it yet again.
As poor as they are, Caucasians overall are known for the longer life span, be that Georgians, Armenians, Azeris or other smaller ethnic groups, Ingush including.

https://www.google.com/search?q=geor...hrome&ie=UTF-8

Abkhazia: Ancients of the Caucasus (Healthy at 100), by John Robbins


Genetically, they are a totally different group of people, unrelated to Russians.
It's when they come down from their mountain peaks and become part of Russian life, their life span significantly shorten I guess.)))
( Like my grand-father for example, who was dead already by the time he was 60 or so, during Stalin's times.)

Last edited by erasure; 07-27-2018 at 09:23 PM..
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Old 07-27-2018, 09:43 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,567 posts, read 28,665,617 times
Reputation: 25160
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Russia already "caved in" and sided with the West in the 90ies.
However as it turned out to be, the West needed more than just "siding" with it.
What it wanted as it turned out, was total dominance and destruction of any independence of Russian state in economic and geopolitical sense of it.
No western country attacked Russia or occupied Russia since the 1940s. So, how could the West dominate and destroy Russia and its economy, with its 140 million people?

Is this just some conspiracy theory? Please explain.
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