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Unions don't deserve all the blame, but they WERE contributors. Many automakers located factories in non-union states because of the high cost of union labor and the difficulty of working with them. That was relocation of jobs away from Michigan. Ford can't easily build cars in the USA in a non-union state - so they build cars in Mexico.
The southern non-union shops parrot the UAW contracts. To a significant degree, their workers are all non-dues-paying UAW free-riders. Many factors combined to make southern sites attractive to start-up foreign auto companies. Tax breaks, lower cost-of-land, lower cost-of-living, and higher unemployment rates were among them. Ford has meanwhile built cars in Mexico since 1926. It does so because it sells cars in Mexico. Lots of them.
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Originally Posted by hoffdano
Many unions have refused to concede when economics suggest they should - whether in wages, benefits, retirement benefits, etc.
Do you have some examples, or is this just more knee-jerk union-bashing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano
The result is companies move some labor to other places. Some of that is out of the US. If the UAW had taken a more cooperative position long ago - there would be more UAW jobs in the US.
The UAW has made one concession after another to the auto companies in light of unfortunate circumstances that the companies and their poor decision-making management teams were important contributors to. Decisions as to plant location are based on the potential for long-term overall profit. Relative labor costs are again but one factor among many used in evaluating potential locations. Sometimes simple Connect the Dots is the wrong game to be playing.
Something of a partial picture, eh? The jobs bank came into existence in 1984 as part of union agreement to industry plans for rapid elimination of jobs through automation. The jobs bank was actually a training and relocation program for workers made redundant, but the companies never seemed to find enough money to put into it to do much of that. Instead they came to use it as a sort of in-house temp service. There was meanwhile no issue over it at all for 20 years. Then as Delphi headed into the tank, biggies there tried to blame their problems on jobs bank costs instead of on their own mistakes and miscalculations. People are like that sometimes.
Public employees definitely don't need unions. They already get civil service protection, fantastic retirement benefits, medical benefits and more holidays.
Looking just at the federal situation since 50 states and 3,000 counties could get a little long...
You can be fired for cause. The same sort of cause as in the private sector. You cannot be fired because the boss didn't like the tie you wore today.
Federal employees hired since 1983 receive a small pension (that they pay for), Social Security, and whatever they can make out of their 401-k's.
I'm the product of two union parents. They both worked 30+ years in their respective unions. They both received excellent pay and retired with nice pensions. Surely, I benefited from their union-granted financial success at some point while growing up.
However, I don't agree with it. One didn't have a HS diploma and earned a six-figure salary while working the system. The other also earned a six-figure salary (with a college degree) and received raises and bonuses without merit. They both did the absolute minimum in their jobs. They also felt they deserved every last penny of what they earned.
What was even worse was that both of their unions sold out the younger members' benefits for greater benefits for themselves. While they were not personally responsible for this, they did agree with it. They felt it was fine to mortgage others' futures for their own gain.
I have my doubts that the original ideals that unions were based on still live on with many members.
Ah, another lovely personal anecdote and testimonial, this one in cavalier disregard of at least the Fifth Commandment. Unions in fact do not have power sufficent to steamroller the interests of management, and neither side has any incentive to undermine the companies that provide a livelihood to them all. Unions in fact have every incentive to cooperate in assuring that the best and most promising employees are promoted and that slugs and slackers are indeed fired. Which is why they do that. A situation in which the condensed and consolidated power of management is set against the puny power of an individual worker is not a level playing field. Unions put the interests of workers on the same level as those of management, allowing the two sides to negotiate agreements that serve all of those interests, not just some of them.
Ah, another lovely personal anecdote and testimonial, this one in cavalier disregard of at least the Fifth Commandment. Unions in fact do not have power sufficent to steamroller the interests of management, and neither side has any incentive to undermine the companies that provide a livelihood to them all. Unions in fact have every incentive to cooperate in assuring that the best and most promising employees are promoted and that slugs and slackers are indeed fired. Which is why they do that. A situation in which the condensed and consolidated power of management is set against the puny power of an individual worker is not a level playing field. Unions put the interests of workers on the same level as those of management, allowing the two sides to negotiate agreements that serve all of those interests, not just some of them.
One can still speak truth and "honor" somebody. But anyway..
While that is an anecdote, if it doesn't represent union workers as a whole, it represents many union workers locally to my area that I personally knew. My father's union went on strike many times and one specifically was in 2000. The "old guys" got to keep their retirement and medical benefits and the young guys got a check for $500. The young guys did not want this. They wanted some compromise so they'd keep their benefits, but the union leaders didn't let their voices be heard.
Your comment is idyllic; it is what unions "should be." However, one would have to be obtuse to not realize how abused the system is by the unions.
Their supposed cooperation in each other's interests results in the customer paying far more for the end result, all because union rules dictate that an employee can only put together 25 widgets a day or go on 4 field calls per week. Its counterproductive. Defending that is sad.
If management would treat workers right you wouldn't need unions.
I agree. I also think we wouldn't need unions if all workers were actually good workers who showed up on time and did a decent days work for their pay.
Unions are needed to protect the worker who is always late for work and who is lazy and doesn't really care if he does a good job or not, all he cares about is when his shift ends. Unions promote mediocrity in workers.
One of our local electrical contracting companies is union, there is a big difference in how his employees behave on the job compared to workers who are not union. The union contractor has always gotten top dollar for electrical jobs, but when the economy slowed down his workers eventually were laid off because he couldn't get any jobs. Many of the non union workers still had jobs, and have those same jobs today. Many of those union workers have started up their own business with one and two man shops, but they don't charge what their union boss charged for a job. Unions where I live have priced themselves out of work. Companies are in business to make money, and if they don't they can't stay in business. For a big company which is easier, argue with a union or go off shore to hire workers?
I'm always curious on people's thoughts & viewpoints on this topic. &, I realize gov't or public sector unions differ from private sector unions. So, use all of them. lol
Which do you prefer? Benefits? Cost? Hurting business or workers, or taxpayers? If you are against, what would you do to change the 'system'? & why do you feel they are 'bad'? If you are for, what do you feel they add for workers, or are still needed in the 21st century? Also, cost of union dues vs benefit.
I'll type my response when I have a 'bit' more time. lol
Discuss.
No one should be forced, coerced or nudged to join a union.
Public employees should not have unions unless taxpayers have a representative at the bargaining table.
Public employee unions should not be permitted to make political contributions.
FDR called public sector unions “unthinkable” and “intolerable.”
Once upon a time, I had a private sector job in a non-unionized field. All the supposed advantages of the private sector slowly slipped off my radar, when A) it was made clear to me how completely expendable to the company I was, and B) lost my job on two separate occasions when my company was bought out, and of course the new bosses had no use for any of us.
Every job I've had it was ALWAYS made clear I was expendable....
This is why the unions are bad.... A person can have unacceptable job performance but the company can't fire them....
With unions there is no need for a person to make themselves an asset to their company...
Companies merging and people being laid off, sounds normal to me.
I'm always curious on people's thoughts & viewpoints on this topic. &, I realize gov't or public sector unions differ from private sector unions. So, use all of them. lol
Which do you prefer? Benefits? Cost? Hurting business or workers, or taxpayers? If you are against, what would you do to change the 'system'? & why do you feel they are 'bad'? If you are for, what do you feel they add for workers, or are still needed in the 21st century? Also, cost of union dues vs benefit.
I'll type my response when I have a 'bit' more time. lol
Discuss.
Its nice to know that they care so much about our country…to DONATE so much!
Rank Organization...................................... .................................................. ............Total '89-'10.....Dem %.......Repub %
1 ActBlue .................................................. .................................................. .......$51,124,846......99%............0%
2 AT&T Inc............................................... .................................................. .........$46,292,670......44%............55%
3 American Fedn of State, County & Municipal Employees......................................... ....$43,477,361.....98%............1%
4 National Assn of Realtors.......................................... ...........................................$38,721 ,441.....49%............50%
5 Goldman Sachs............................................. .................................................. ...$33,387,252.....61%............37%
6 American Assn for Justice........................................... .........................................$33,143,2 79.....90%............8%
7 Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers........................................... ..........................$33,056,216......97%.... ........2%
8 National Education Assn.............................................. .........................................$32,024,6 10......93%............6%
9 Laborers Union............................................. .................................................. .....$30,292,050.....92%............7%
10 Teamsters Union............................................. .................................................. ..$29,319,982......93%............6%
11 Carpenters & Joiners Union............................................. .......................................$29,265,808 ......89%...........10%
12 Service Employees International Union............................................. ........................$29,140,232......95%...... .....3%
13 American Federation of Teachers.......................................... ..................................$28,733,991..... .98%...........0%
14 Communications Workers of America........................................... .............................$28,376,306......98%. ..........0%
15 Citigroup Inc............................................... .................................................. ......$28,065,874......50%..........49%
16 American Medical Assn.............................................. ............................................$27,59 7,820......40%..........59%
17 United Auto Workers........................................... .................................................. $27,134,252......98%.......... 0%
18 National Auto Dealers Assn.............................................. .......................................$26,311,758 .......32%..........67%
19 Machinists & Aerospace Workers Union............................................. ........................$26,229,477.......98%..... .....0%
20 United Parcel Service........................................... .................................................$ 25,290,039.......36%.........62%
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If you are a firearms enthusiast, how do you feel about your union givings so heavily to a group of people who want to take your guns away - the Democrats?
Last edited by Nite Ryder; 07-03-2011 at 12:41 PM..
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Union vs Non-Union
