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why? Because married couples never cheat or keep secrets? Divorce rate is over 50% in this country for a reason. Married couple need it just as much as unmarried ones
First "man up" a sexist term. What about the MANY women who lie about their baby's fathers? No one tells them to "woman up". Plus the benefits PT tests has for men and the children far outweigh any disadvantages (which are slim). Men should be provided protection against fraud just like women. This IS a gender issue and men shouldn't have to ask for something that can help them just like rape victims (men and women) shouldn't have to ASK for help especially when one knows there's a chance they were. Women will NEVER know the feeling of a man they loved who was "too scared" to tell them they really weren't their son's or daughter's mother. In a society that is supposed to be "equal" men shouldn't be left with a choice to either "man up" or suffer. Especially since we don't take that same attitude towards women.
If a man has to ask for a DNA test when the child is 6, he's not a jerk, but SHE probably is. It take a while sometimes b4 a child starts to resemble their father or mother. If i found out i've been lied to for 6 years then i would leave immediately. It's the woman's fault for lying and hurting her mate and her child. It's better for him to leave that to stick around a be reminded she cheated on him every time he looks at the kid who turns out is another man's. Not the kids fault but it's not his either and he should NOT have to stick around just because she lied to make him attached to the child. She should have been a REAL woman and told him the truth from the beginning!
Well, the actual discussion is a matter of trusting your partner. It's a sad state of affairs when we assume that everyone is inherently unfaithful and we must therefore verify paternity. Again, the point would be that if a man was concerned or wanted to "know for sure" he has that right. Of course, who knows how such a request would turn out in terms of the relationship that created the child. I will also reiterate that we are talking about limited numbers. How many people are in your "numerous" articles? When it happens it tends to make the news because it is so rare, but this isn't exactly an epidemic problem.
As a husband and father I personally do not understand how anyone in that situation can turn their back on the child. The betrayal was from the spouse, not from the child. I understand why the marriage would end, but I do not understand why the man in question would suddenly not want his children or feel he has no responsibility for them.
To assume that lack of biology makes a child not yours, then we would also need to accept the notion that men are somehow incapable of loving adopted or stepchildren as their own, which we all know is false.
Yes, the betrayal hurts from the SPOUSE, but it does not alter the situation of being the child's "father". If a man was to let the pain of the bretrayal co-opt his love for his child, then in my frank opinion, he is not much of a man.
As a man I do not feel that the system is rigged for women to receive automatic custody of children. There are plenty of cases where men receive primary or sole custody of their children. Every case is unique and has different circumstances. My brother's wife left him for a man in another state. Six months later she filed for dovorce and custody of their child, my brother won and has raised his son as a single dad with only limited contact with his ex and her family for over 12 years. Every case is unique.
If I had to guess, you are a single male with no children who is arguing about a point that you cannot possibly understand on the basis of what you view to be arcane legalities and questionable ethics. Until you have been a father you cannot understand the relationship between a father and child. It transcends genetics and any person who would reject a child on the basis you are outlining is weak and selfish.
I have three children, if I found out tomorrow they weren't mine, it would not change the fact that they are my children and I would feel responsible for taking care of them and I would fight tooth and nail for custody. If custody was granted to my wife, I would endeavor to be an ever present person in their lives. My wifes betrayal is not my child's betrayal and this is something you cannot understand unless you are a parent.
To me honestly you sound like a woman using a man's cover. Not saying this as an insult but you give absolutely no credit or care to men's feelings and speak as if being a real man is letting a woman walk all over you or never speaking up when you are being used because you are a man. This white knight type of chivalry you speak of is not only outdated, it's sexist. If a man has been lied to about a child being his, he should NO LEGAL OR MORAL obligation to support the child. If he chooses to then that's his choice. I doubt many men after 10 to 12 years of raising a kid would leave but if they did they should not feel like they are less of a man. Men have feelings too and if looking at the child everyday serves as a reminder of a lie your mate told you then by all means, walk away. I am a father of two beautiful boys and i can understand but it would make no different if i wasn't. Parents often like to think we're on a higher plane of understanding but we're not, we're still just people. The truth is this legal system is set up for women and not for men, even prominent female feminist have admitted it. So please don't try to make men feel like they're whining when they are doing something women always ask us to do (express our feelings) and don't accuse them of being naive just because they're not fathers yet. Not speaking up for gender inequalities for men is not chivalrous its cowardly and we're letting are children down by doing so. We should hold women to the same truthfulness and standards that we hold men to. Given that reproductive rights are given solely to women, it should be up to them to make sure they know who the father of their child is and let them know if they're not.
Last edited by bruceudo; 12-27-2011 at 09:47 PM..
Reason: Spelling
scenario: child is born, before dad signs affidavit of parentage, should there be some sort of mandatory paternity testing?
I just noticed this thread for the first time! What affidavit of parentage? What country are you talking about? Men don't sign something like that here. In my state, the mother fills out the birth certificate. The fathers dont' sign anything.
You need a paternity test EVEN when the paternity is not in question. What if a man has no reason to believe the child isn't his, yet it isn't. This is not a rare event. It happens ALL THE TIME. We even have television shows with hundreds of episodes devoted to these kind of events. They don't have to force any man. I'm sure most men, taken to separate rooms from their mate and asked whether they would want to take a PT test would gladly agree. We waste more of men's money by keeping things the way they are. Video cameras on the streets are a violation of privacy yet we allow it b/c it keeps people safe and helps to catch criminals. This is no different. It's easier to disagree if you're female but if you look from our point of view (which women rarely ever care to do) then you might start to understand.
Here's your problem. There are state laws that dictate parentage within marriage. Where I live, a paternity test proving a husband isn't the father wouldn't mean a damn thing because our state laws are very clear that the father of any child during a marriage is the husband of the wife, even if there is a different biological father. Marriage trumps paternity in my state, probably many other states too. When people marry, a financial partnership is formed making each partner financially responsible for whatever the other partner does and that includes having children.
You need a paternity test EVEN when the paternity is not in question. What if a man has no reason to believe the child isn't his, yet it isn't. This is not a rare event. It happens ALL THE TIME. We even have television shows with hundreds of episodes devoted to these kind of events. They don't have to force any man. I'm sure most men, taken to separate rooms from their mate and asked whether they would want to take a PT test would gladly agree. We waste more of men's money by keeping things the way they are. Video cameras on the streets are a violation of privacy yet we allow it b/c it keeps people safe and helps to catch criminals. This is no different. It's easier to disagree if you're female but if you look from our point of view (which women rarely ever care to do) then you might start to understand.
If the man does not wish to contest paternity, that is his choice but he has the choice to contest it if he wishes. No one is forcing any man to accept a child that is not his unles he's already established himself as the father. In that case, he is the father for legal and moral purposes whether the DNA matches or not but it's his choice not to test when the baby is born so that is by his choice. Every man has the right to demand a test. The problem here is you're trying to fix something that aint broke by treating all women as lying ho's . Seriously????? There is NOTHING stopping any man who wants a paternity test from getting one the day a baby is born. If he doesn't want to take responsibility, he can not sign the birth certificate until paternity is proven. It's HIS CHOICE!! He has a lot of power. He can refuse to buy diapers, help the mother or bond with the child until it's proven to be his. That is HIS choice. No one is stopping him from getting the baby tested.
The test is available to any and all who want it. If you want one done, have one done. What is the advantage of forcing every child to be tested because you want to make sure? What someone else chooses to do is not your concern. If you want a test, have a test. It's that simple. How would you feel if we gave ever man a yearly lie detector test to see if he cheated because some men do cheat? You have a very low opinion of women here. I'd suggest you work on that.
Obviously, you do not trust women or the women in your life. Your problem is you want to keep that distrust a secret from them. However, they deserve to know that you think they are lying ho's. I'd sure want to know of my dh thought that of me. You want the test with no consequences for YOU. The advantage of testing all babies is that YOU don't have to admit what you really think of the woman in your life by demanding a test. Man up buddy. If you think she's a lying ho, then demand the test ...and go find someone you don't think is a lying ho. Seriously, why would you be in a realationship with someone you don't trust? I wouldn't stay in a relationship without trust. Either you trust her or you don't. If you don't, keep it in your pants. Even if the test shows that baby is yours, that doesn't mean she didn't cheat. It just means your sperm fertilized the egg.
The only people who need the test are people who don't trust their partner. Once you've accepted responsibility for a child, that child is yours legally and morally. Genetics no longer matter. This is only an issue if you're some kind of cad who would turn his back on a child, later, if it turns out to not be yours genetically. If so, you need to let your partner know that up front by demanding a test...but THAT requires honesty on your part, doesn't it? THAT is what bothers you. You'd have to be honest up front with your parnter. You'd have to tell her that you think she's a lying ho and that you are a cad who'd turn his back on a child later if it's found not to be yours. (BTW, she deserves to know in both cases so just tell her)
Either accept the child or don't. The choice is yours. Any man who wants a test can have a test. Exactly why do we need to test all babies when any man has the right to have a test now? My husband and I trust each other, we don't need tests. If you don't trust your partner, then have one. It's your choice. Don't take away our choice just because you don't want to live with the consequences of admitting you don't trust your partner. That's YOUR problem not mine.
FTR, I have one who my dh could question (actually both doing the math but dd#1 is the spitting image of her father). Dd#2 looks nothing like him and due to my having long pregnancies, the math doesn't work out if you count back from the day she was born. You need to add two weeks in her case. I'd fry his arse in lard if he dared ask for a paternity test now. That boat has sailed... I'd have the test because I know what the result would be but I'd kick him to the curb so fast he'd need leather underwear to avoid road rash. Only a cad would ask for a test after he's established himself as the father. What an awful thing to do to a child.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 12-28-2011 at 07:59 AM..
Here's your problem. There are state laws that dictate parentage within marriage. Where I live, a paternity test proving a husband isn't the father wouldn't mean a damn thing because our state laws are very clear that the father of any child during a marriage is the husband of the wife, even if there is a different biological father. Marriage trumps paternity in my state, probably many other states too. When people marry, a financial partnership is formed making each partner financially responsible for whatever the other partner does and that includes having children.
And that includes financial responsibilty for any children the father has outside of the marriage as well. If you're not up to taking on the responsibility of a partner, don't get married.
There are so many ways you put yourself at risk when you marry. If my husband gets into a car accident and is sued, everything I own is at risk. If he fathers a child with someone else, they won't think twice about taking what I own to support that child. Once a child is born, it is about the child not the adults. Like it or not, we get legal responsibility for children born to our spouses whether we signed up for that or not.
To me honestly you sound like a woman using a man's cover.
Really? How does a woman sound online versus a man?
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Not saying this as an insult but you give absolutely no credit or care to men's feelings and speak as if being a real man is letting a woman walk all over you or never speaking up when you are being used because you are a man. This white knight type of chivalry you speak of is not only outdated, it's sexist.
I never said that being a real man is letting a woman walk over you and use you. I do think that there are plenty of circumstances where men do not always get a fair shake in the courts and I also agree that reproductive rights are an issue in so far as a woman can choose to keep or terminate a pregnancy at their discretion, but that a man does not have the same discretion. I can't decide, no, I don't want this child and walk away. So, there are some things we could argue the finer points of where I feel men have less rights.
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If a man has been lied to about a child being his, he should NO LEGAL OR MORAL obligation to support the child. If he chooses to then that's his choice. I doubt many men after 10 to 12 years of raising a kid would leave but if they did they should not feel like they are less of a man. Men have feelings too and if looking at the child everyday serves as a reminder of a lie your mate told you then by all means, walk away.
This is where you lose me and is the ENTIRE point of my argument that you quoted. I do not personally understand how a man who has loved and raised a child for many years could suddenly find out the truth about their biology and just turn around and walk away. Being a parent goes well beyond biology and if anything you are the one making the obsolete and old fashioned argument by asserting that biology is somehow greater than actual parenting.
IMO, a "man" who would turn around and walk out on his children over finding out that they weren't biologically his IS LESS OF A MAN. The children did not do anything wrong in this situation and are not deserving of the scorn and condemnation. You are taking the horrible mistake and infedility of the mother and just compounding it with rash action that only hurts the child. I understand why the marriage would end, but I do NOT understand why it should be acceptable for the father to disavow his children as if they never existed. Today I'm taking little Timmy to t-ball and teaching him how to ride his bike and he tells me, I love you daddy; then tomorrow he's dead to me, because he's actually the milkman's kid. No, I don't accept or understand that.
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I am a father of two beautiful boys and i can understand but it would make no different if i wasn't. Parents often like to think we're on a higher plane of understanding but we're not, we're still just people.
We are just people, but I think the "walk a mile in my shoes" applies. While someone who has never had children cannot understand what it is like to be a parent, a parent does actually know what it's like to not have children. It's not a different plain of existence, it's just a different perspective and one that people cannot possibly truly understand until they have experienced it.
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The truth is this legal system is set up for women and not for men, even prominent female feminist have admitted it. So please don't try to make men feel like they're whining when they are doing something women always ask us to do (express our feelings) and don't accuse them of being naive just because they're not fathers yet. Not speaking up for gender inequalities for men is not chivalrous its cowardly and we're letting are children down by doing so. We should hold women to the same truthfulness and standards that we hold men to. Given that reproductive rights are given solely to women, it should be up to them to make sure they know who the father of their child is and let them know if they're not.
I'm all for fighting inequality where it exists, but I do think that mandatory paternity testing is going too far to address a very minor issue. You state that men are held to some sort of higher truthfulness level and standards then women are, can you elaborate on that? What higher truthfulness standard are we talking about? Last time I checked no one wanted me to submit to a government mandated test to determine my fidelity.
It should be up to men to not sleep with and impregnate women for whom their fidelity is in doubt.
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. Seriously????? There is NOTHING stopping any man who wants a paternity test from getting one the day a baby is born. If he doesn't want to take responsibility, he can not sign the birth certificate until paternity is proven. It's HIS CHOICE!! He has a lot of power. He can refuse to buy diapers, help the mother or bond with the child until it's proven to be his. That is HIS choice. No one is stopping him from getting the baby tested.
And that includes financial responsibilty for any children the father has outside of the marriage as well. If you're not up to taking on the responsibility of a partner, don't get married. 
