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It's a movie, you can look up all the crap he said and we most of it is wrong.
We are number 1 in average income, consumer spending and GDP.
Most of it is not wrong, some of it is. I posted it for the dramatic value.
If you would like to debunk the video, point by point, go a head. But so far my source of a tv show, while flimsy, is stronger than your source, which is nothing at this point. If you would like to continue the discussion about the points he makes, I encourage you to make a thread, I would like to see the conversation that ensues. I just don't want to derail this thread.
I am at a loss as to why people freak out when somebody mentions secession.
What is the big issue with free people deciding who to associate with politically? If we are truly free, why do people support the use of violent force to keep the United States in it's present form?
Throughout history both ancient and modern the trend is consistent of countries and empires breaking into smaller more numerous political designations, this tends to lead to governments that are more responsive to the local populations.
Most of the time, when secession is brought up, the nay-sayers link it to the confederacy and racism, and why not, it is an easy cop-out. Truth is there are many regions in the United States which could benefit by not being ruled by D.C., often a city a thousand miles away. The Cascadia region could benefit by controlling itself, so could Texas or New England. This is not a southern racist conservative issue, like many like to paint it to be.
So what are your problems with secession? And if you have a problem with secession, do you support violence to suppress a state or states efforts to secede?
I believe all of the southern states, as well as Arizona should secede if they want to.
The US is still a major world power, but it's prosperity is in decline, and the freedoms once protected by the constitution are almost gone. Do you not consider a loss of civil liberties a decline?
If you are saying that there is/was no decline, do you really believe that the United States is at it's peak of prosperity, freedom, and wealth right now?
My views is that American prosperity is in decline relative to our post-WWII heights. In the past 40 or so years, much of the world has accepted market-based economics, contracts-law and principles of property rights. While true popular sovereignty remains elusive, outright autocracies are in decline. Hundreds of millions of people worldwide now have access to education, health care, clean water and job opportunities. These gains are NOT zero-sum, but they have uplifted in relative terms peoples and nations which were far below in living-standards that which we enjoy in the US. Thus in relative terms, yes, the US has declined. But in absolute terms, I don't believe that "decline" is the operative term.
In fact in many regards the US really is presently at its peak - not by military prowess (though this also happens to be true), but in access to technology, in capacity to travel and to gain access to information, and in many aspects of material resources. I would not indulge in starry boosterism of some new golden age. No, things have not suddenly become phenomenally good. But the general trend, I think, is far from decline. Life today is in many ways more pleasant and more secure than it was 40 years ago, despite America's relative "decline" compared to other nations.
The question of civil liberties is a thorny one. I concede that today the average American is more likely to be filmed by cameras in stores and metro stations, frisked by TSA agents, targeted by direct-mail and insidious advertising. We have a higher population density and are living more shoulder to shoulder. But overall I see no more reason to worry about a black van appearing on my driveway in the night, taking me away - no more today that during the long history of nativist convulsions in the 20th century.
In short, I fail to see some glaring crisis necessitating some desperate remedy.
I am at a loss as to why people freak out when somebody mentions secession.
Well one would think that after all this time and all the responses that the thread has received the OP's original question having been asked has been answered.
First We think that it is unconstitutional, particularly if it is done unilaterally.
2. It is geographically Unworkable.
3. The nation's infrastructure is geographically interdependent.
4. Lacks a basic understanding of the political demographics of the American people as a result does not protect the rights of American citizens who choose not to be politically cleansed from their home.
Well one would think that after all this time and all the responses that the thread has received the OP's original question having been asked has been answered.
First We think that it is unconstitutional, particularly if it is done unilaterally.
2. It is geographically Unworkable.
3. The nation's infrastructure is geographically interdependent.
4. Lacks a basic understanding of the political demographics of the American people as a result does not protect the rights of American citizens who choose not to be politically cleansed from their home.
Yours is the literal answer to the question, but you are ducking the more difficult philosophical issues.
When a segment of the populace has become so disgruntled that they actually don't recognize the President and the Congress as legitimate authorities, when they talk seriously of secession or moving to a better place, when they have lost faith in the system, these are not problems you can sweep under the carpet. You can't just dismiss them as fringe lunatics who can be safely ignored. The numbers are growing.
We need to address the problems in this country that are causing such discontent and division and stop relying on any particular President or any particular legislative initiative to solve them.
The federal government continues to grow out of control and spend money it doesn't have and may never have, even while some of the more responsible states are balancing their budgets and getting their houses in order.
You can't just say, oh don't worry, secession is a stupid pipedream so let's get back to the real world now. It's been many decades since we've had the kind of stability and prosperity that many of us remember from our childhoods, when there were lots of good jobs, good opportunities for people with nothing more than a high school education, stable neighborhoods, and a strong dollar that went a long way. That's what most people want, is a return to those halcyon times.
That may not be possible, of course, given our financial recklessness since the 1980s, and given our global responsibilities, and the competitiveness of formerly poor countries like China. That's just a natural progression and it's no one's fault. In fact we encouraged the world to become more like us.
What we need to do now is become more like we used to be! Make our country a business friendly place once again, rationalize our taxation and regulation so that business owners aren't constantly on the defensive, constantly trying to game the system or move labor and suppliers overseas. Make it cheaper to start a business, to borrow money for legitimate purposes (but harder for deadbeats to borrow money e.g. subprime loans). Balance the federal budget and establish a schedule for paying down the national debt.
There's a lot of things we can do. I personally don't believe the current government is being very fiscally responsible. I think they should have let the big banks fail, to punish them for making bad loans. They should have let GM go through bankruptcy and emerge a stronger, leaner company instead of a fat, entitled legacy pension machine which is what we got instead.
I think we should cut back on our military responsibilities around the globe to match our financial situation, but not leave our allies in the lurch--keep up our stealth bomber and fighter programs, keep our fleets modernized, and keep up the training. Just stay out of conflicts that don't directly threaten us or our friends.
I believe we need more transparency in government, more accountability among the many agencies that today try to justify their existence and ask for maximum budgets year after year, while accomplishing virtually nothing. We have a Department of Education that sucks up $60 billion or $70 a year, about $1 trillion since Jimmy Carter set it up in the late 70s. And every year, student test scores and achievement scores have gone down. What exactly did we get for our trillion dollars? A bunch of programs, publications, grants, advertisements, thousands of pensioned bureaucrats... who vote for the politicians who keep the agencies afloat year after year.
There's a lot of fat there. We could cut a trillion a year off federal spending and no one would notice. We could balance the budget next year and cut an additional trillion the following year, and the country will survive just fine. In fact it would prosper, as the feds stop soaking up all the available capital and allow businesses to invest more, to create more jobs, which would lead to more tax revenues.
These are the things we need to be focusing on and stop demonizing the people who want out. Give them a reason to stay. It's not "America, love it or leave it". It's "my country, right or wrong--if right, to keep it right; if wrong, to make it right."
Yours is the literal answer to the question, but you are ducking the more difficult philosophical issues.
When a segment of the populace has become so disgruntled that they actually don't recognize the President and the Congress as legitimate authorities, when they talk seriously of secession or moving to a better place, when they have lost faith in the system, these are not problems you can sweep under the carpet. You can't just dismiss them as fringe lunatics who can be safely ignored. The numbers are growing.
We need to address the problems in this country that are causing such discontent and division and stop relying on any particular President or any particular legislative initiative to solve them.
The federal government continues to grow out of control and spend money it doesn't have and may never have, even while some of the more responsible states are balancing their budgets and getting their houses in order.
You can't just say, oh don't worry, secession is a stupid pipedream so let's get back to the real world now. It's been many decades since we've had the kind of stability and prosperity that many of us remember from our childhoods, when there were lots of good jobs, good opportunities for people with nothing more than a high school education, stable neighborhoods, and a strong dollar that went a long way. That's what most people want, is a return to those halcyon times.
That may not be possible, of course, given our financial recklessness since the 1980s, and given our global responsibilities, and the competitiveness of formerly poor countries like China. That's just a natural progression and it's no one's fault. In fact we encouraged the world to become more like us.
What we need to do now is become more like we used to be! Make our country a business friendly place once again, rationalize our taxation and regulation so that business owners aren't constantly on the defensive, constantly trying to game the system or move labor and suppliers overseas. Make it cheaper to start a business, to borrow money for legitimate purposes (but harder for deadbeats to borrow money e.g. subprime loans). Balance the federal budget and establish a schedule for paying down the national debt.
There's a lot of things we can do. I personally don't believe the current government is being very fiscally responsible. I think they should have let the big banks fail, to punish them for making bad loans. They should have let GM go through bankruptcy and emerge a stronger, leaner company instead of a fat, entitled legacy pension machine which is what we got instead.
I think we should cut back on our military responsibilities around the globe to match our financial situation, but not leave our allies in the lurch--keep up our stealth bomber and fighter programs, keep our fleets modernized, and keep up the training. Just stay out of conflicts that don't directly threaten us or our friends.
I believe we need more transparency in government, more accountability among the many agencies that today try to justify their existence and ask for maximum budgets year after year, while accomplishing virtually nothing. We have a Department of Education that sucks up $60 billion or $70 a year, about $1 trillion since Jimmy Carter set it up in the late 70s. And every year, student test scores and achievement scores have gone down. What exactly did we get for our trillion dollars? A bunch of programs, publications, grants, advertisements, thousands of pensioned bureaucrats... who vote for the politicians who keep the agencies afloat year after year.
There's a lot of fat there. We could cut a trillion a year off federal spending and no one would notice. We could balance the budget next year and cut an additional trillion the following year, and the country will survive just fine. In fact it would prosper, as the feds stop soaking up all the available capital and allow businesses to invest more, to create more jobs, which would lead to more tax revenues.
These are the things we need to be focusing on and stop demonizing the people who want out. Give them a reason to stay. It's not "America, love it or leave it". It's "my country, right or wrong--if right, to keep it right; if wrong, to make it right."
I was going to reply to that post, but you knocked it out of the park. I don't have much if any to add.
I will add one line, in agreement with your post, free people should not be coerced into participation in any political system.. if a government is truly beneficial, they should be allowed to participate voluntarily, not under threat of violence if they leave.
I believe all of the southern states, as well as Arizona should secede if they want to.
Don't ask the government for anything. Just go.
That is a good attitude to have. But I do have one question, if Cascadia or New England wanted to secede, would you be ok with that too? Or can just the south leave?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant
My views is that American prosperity is in decline relative to our post-WWII heights. In the past 40 or so years, much of the world has accepted market-based economics, contracts-law and principles of property rights. While true popular sovereignty remains elusive, outright autocracies are in decline. Hundreds of millions of people worldwide now have access to education, health care, clean water and job opportunities. These gains are NOT zero-sum, but they have uplifted in relative terms peoples and nations which were far below in living-standards that which we enjoy in the US. Thus in relative terms, yes, the US has declined. But in absolute terms, I don't believe that "decline" is the operative term.
In fact in many regards the US really is presently at its peak - not by military prowess (though this also happens to be true), but in access to technology, in capacity to travel and to gain access to information, and in many aspects of material resources. I would not indulge in starry boosterism of some new golden age. No, things have not suddenly become phenomenally good. But the general trend, I think, is far from decline. Life today is in many ways more pleasant and more secure than it was 40 years ago, despite America's relative "decline" compared to other nations.
The question of civil liberties is a thorny one. I concede that today the average American is more likely to be filmed by cameras in stores and metro stations, frisked by TSA agents, targeted by direct-mail and insidious advertising. We have a higher population density and are living more shoulder to shoulder. But overall I see no more reason to worry about a black van appearing on my driveway in the night, taking me away - no more today that during the long history of nativist convulsions in the 20th century.
In short, I fail to see some glaring crisis necessitating some desperate remedy.
One glaring example that I think needs desperate remedy is the state of the 4th amendment. The NSA has been exposed as to having absolutely no limit on power. I mean, agents are getting caught spying on love interests, what is to stop them from spying on high level officials? What kind of power would dirt on 15-20 congressmen look like?
We are starting to have foreign relations problems as leaders of other countries learn that they are being spied on by the NSA as well.
Another crisis in need of desperate remedy is the economy. This countries debt and unfunded liabilities absolutely dwarf the total GDP of the planet, and the status of the dollars as the world reserve currency is being challenged on many fronts. If we were to lose reserve status, other major players would emerge on the world stage quickly. Then our only advantage is military might, and I sincerely hope we do not use it to oppress other nations.
Another crisis in need of desperate remedy is the economy. This countries debt and unfunded liabilities absolutely dwarf the total GDP of the planet, and the status of the dollars as the world reserve currency is being challenged on many fronts. If we were to lose reserve status, other major players would emerge on the world stage quickly. Then our only advantage is military might, and I sincerely hope we do not use it to oppress other nations.
If a state or collection of states secedes, what new currency would they adopt? Would the financial markets take that currency seriously? What would be backing that currency? What would happen to the financial assets of citizens of the new nation? If denominated in the new currency, likely those assets would plummet. That is one reason why the wealthier citizens of would-be secessionist communities are unlikely to clamor for secession.
If Cascadia secedes, what happens to stock of Microsoft and Boeing, trading in the New York financial markets?
So what are your problems with secession? And if you have a problem with secession, do you support violence to suppress a state or states efforts to secede?
Lincoln screwed up big time. He shoulda let the south go. We'd be way better off without them.
I am at a loss as to why people freak out when somebody mentions secession.
Probably because it instantly brings to mind the Civil War.
What is the big issue with free people deciding who to associate with politically? If we are truly free, why do people support the use of violent force to keep the United States in it's present form?
We are free, to a point, that's debatable I guess. But you seem to be suggesting that living within any nation-state and not having the ability to break that nation-state up into tiny pieces makes you somehow not free. I don't agree with that.
Throughout history both ancient and modern the trend is consistent of countries and empires breaking into smaller more numerous political designations, this tends to lead to governments that are more responsive to the local populations.
That's a little more complicated and I think that most of those examples wouldn't really apply to the United States. Secession in the United States wouldn't be based on some kind linguistic, cultural or religious differences or even the result of long-oppressed nationalism. Let's face it, what we're really talking about here is the break-up of the red and blue states. I don't think that's going to happen, for reasons I will explain below.
Most of the time, when secession is brought up, the nay-sayers link it to the confederacy and racism, and why not, it is an easy cop-out.
That's our primary example though. It's not a cop out, it's our national memory.
Truth is there are many regions in the United States which could benefit by not being ruled by D.C., often a city a thousand miles away. The Cascadia region could benefit by controlling itself, so could Texas or New England. This is not a southern racist conservative issue, like many like to paint it to be.
Perhaps that's true. I'm sure some of the states that pay more than they get back from the federal government could benefit by getting a better deal elsewhere.
So what are your problems with secession? And if you have a problem with secession, do you support violence to suppress a state or states efforts to secede?
First, again, I can't but look at this through the prism of our right-left, red state-blue state divide. The way I see it, regardless of who wins the 2014 midterms, the left in this country is growing and the right is shrinking. There's a demographic shift going on in this country and over the next few decades, not only will it be extremely difficult for the right to win the White House (and the Supreme Court appointments that go with it) but several red states are likely to head towards becoming blue states. So what we're talking about here is basically some combination of red states seceding from the union. After all, why would liberal New England (or the mid-Atlantic, or the Rust Belt, or the West Coast) secede? They're winning, they don't need to secede.
The problem with all of this is that over the last couple of decades, the right has built a fantastic propaganda machine, one that works so well it will defeat the smarter people on the right who see the demographic writing on the wall and know that they're days are numbered. With right wing talk radio and Fox News, the NY Post, the WSJ, the Washington Times and a host of right wing websites all telling people on the right that the mainstream media can't be trusted and lies to them, many on the right believe that in reality, they're the majority, the polls are all skewed and wrong and the Democrats only can win by using voter fraud. I call this place, Propaganda Island, and some on the right really like it there. I know when I encounter them because linking to a straight news story on the NY Times always elicits a dismissive response. They simply refuse to believe a straight news story from the mainstream press. The best evidence that this place exists can be found when during the last election, a huge number of people on the right really and truly believed that all the polls were biased and that Romney was going to win the election (and right wing talk radio and Fox News had no problem feeding them this before the election), even Romney's own campaign team bought into this.
Now, the reason this is a problem is that if we're talking about a group of red states leaving, too many people on the right simply refuse to see the writing on the wall. They believe the country is rightfully theirs and with the right voter id laws (laws that should realistically be seen for what they actually are, a sign of desperation by the right who need to purge the voter rolls and prevent people from voting to have any shot at victory) they'll assume their rightful spot as the majority leading this country and get to put those pesky liberals in their place. By the time these people wake up and the truth somehow finally penetrates to them on Propaganda Island, it'll be too late.
But other than that, my problem with it is that while it seems attractive at first glance, how easy things would be if a few of those red states were lopped off, I simply believe that when this country was created, it was created as a consolidated nation-state that had every right to maintain it's national territorial integrity just like any other and there's no taking your ball and going home just because you don't like losing elections. I view the states as nothing more than mere administrative subdivisions of that nation-state.
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