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Let's begin by establishing the fact that us humans, assign value to different forms of life in a very bizarre way. In the words of Melanie Joy, We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows. We love some animals and even pass laws to protect them (it's a crime to run over a dog). Yet, we eat and torture other animals without knowing why.
Carnism is the belief system, or ideology, that allows us to selectively choose which animals become our meat .... and it is sustained by complex psychological and social mechanisms.
Carnism, is also direct evidence for the case that humans have an un-scientific and irrational valuation for life. Simply speaking, no rational thought explains why we have no issues with killing a cow, but put people in prison for killing a cat.
......... from animals to humans.
A species (humans) that is so irrational with valuation of life should not be trusted with issues re: life. That said, let's give credit where it is due.
We as a society, have mostly agreed that it is not okay to kill other humans simply because they are less abled, of a different race/ color, etc. We still kill others based on nationality .. but let's ignore that for now.
Abortion
Currently, we have no issues killing fellow humans with age less than 7-8 months.
In the US, abortion laws differ State by State. But that is irrelevant. The fact is that you can have an abortion almost anywhere till the second trimester (13-28 weeks).
Contrary to popular belief, abortion in most European countries is more strict than the US, and in most cases, is allowed only till the first trimester.
So, it is well established, that you can kill a form of human life without any consequence(s) within the first 0-7 months.
Given our poor understanding of the science of life - how can developed societies be so sure about laws that result in thousands of deaths every year?
Have catch phrases and divisions like: pro-life vs. pro-choice clouded our thinking? How can anyone be comfortable with things the way they are .....?
NB: to have this debate in a serious manner, we need to take religion/politics out of the equation. Let's try and understand this issue based on science and human behavior.
Last edited by sandman249; 11-20-2013 at 09:53 PM..
Reason: edit
Let's begin by establishing the fact that us humans, assign value to different forms of life in a very bizarre way. In the words of Melanie Joy, We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows. We love some animals and even pass laws to protect them (it's a crime to run over a dog). Yet, we eat and torture other animals without knowing why.
Carnism is the belief system, or ideology, that allows us to selectively choose which animals become our meat .... and it is sustained by complex psychological and social mechanisms.
Carnism, is also direct evidence for the case that humans have an un-scientific and irrational valuation for life. Simply speaking, no rational thought explains why we have no issues with killing a cow, but put people in prison for killing a cat.
A species (humans) that is so irrational with valuation of life should not be trusted with issues re: life. That said, let's give credit where it is due.
We as a society, have mostly agreed that it is not okay to kill other humans simply because they are less abled, of a different race/ color, etc. We still kill others based on nationality .. but let's ignore that for now.
Irrational how? Do you understand the difference between a pig and a human?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249
Abortion
Currently, we have no issues killing fellow humans with age less than 7-8 months.
In the US, abortion laws differ State by State. But that is irrelevant. The fact is that you can have an abortion almost anywhere till the second trimester (13-28 weeks).
Contrary to popular belief, abortion in most European countries is more strict than the US, and in most cases, is allowed only till the first trimester.
So what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249
So, it is well established, that you can kill a form of human life without any consequence(s) within the first 0-7 months.
No it is not. Homicide is illegal in the USA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249
Given our poor understanding of the science of life - how can developed societies be so sure about laws that result in thousands of deaths every year?
What deaths are you talking about? More people die during pregnancy than abortion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249
Have catch phrases and divisions like: pro-life vs. pro-choice clouded our thinking? How can anyone be comfortable with things the way they are .....?
That is probably the case for certain people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249
NB: to have this debate in a serious manner, we need to take religion/politics out of the equation. Let's try and understand this issue based on science and human behavior.
Let's begin by establishing the fact that us humans, assign value to different forms of life in a very bizarre way.
If a rational basis is bizarre I guess I could see your point... unfortunately for your argument we actually do base our treatment of animals on a very rational cost benefit analysis.
Humans have eaten meat because the protein that animal meat provides was integral to the evolution of the human brain, so we eat those animals which provide the most protein in the most efficient way. The cultivation of animals that were easy to domesticate and slaughter for food is efficient. Hunting for animals that can't or are too difficult to raise are generally left alone. Besides animals that we consume, there are animals that serve other purposes, be it work, security, or just companionship that we also do not kill as a matter of course.
More people die driving a car ....
Numbers do not matter.
Again, what deaths are you even talking about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman249
lol ... you dont understand the post.
This is the great debates forum. If you want to argue from an alternate reality then do so in another forum. In THIS forum facts and evidence trump emotions and unsubstantiated claims. I provided multiple sources backing up my position. Would you care to do the same?
1. It is not illegal to run over a dog. Please cite where someone has ever been arrested for running over a dog. If anyone gets arrested or fined.....it is more than likely going to be the dog's owner for violating leash laws.
2. Yes, it is illegal to abuse animals........if I starve a dog to death......I might get arrested.....and if I do......I will end up with a slap on the wrist: Something like six months probation and a $200 fine.
Let me know where I can get away with starving a human with those kinds of consequences.
Don't even start whining that we value animals more than we do humans.
Excuse me.....gotta go now.....the kid is rattling the door on it's cage......must be time to take it out to pee. LOL
Let's begin by establishing the fact that us humans, assign value to...
"Definition" is not a verb, it should have been "we humans", and your post only gets worse from there. And in echoing various of the above, how is it that believers in religious nutcase theory can assume that actually intelligent people have not already heard and many times laughed at this sort of contrived claptrap? Do you expect to accomplish anything here beyond simply humiliating yourself?
Last edited by fairlaker; 11-21-2013 at 11:04 AM..
And NONE of the above replies are even really relevant to the abortion issue, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with "womens rights", "health", or even "pro life".
If abortion was really about killing unborn babies for the sake of killing unborn babies, it would NEVER be legalized.
But that's not what the debate is really about.
The REAL issue is that a pregnancy can be an unintended consequence to a sexual relationship. Particularly of the frivolous, casual, and promiscuous variety. It's no coincidence that the people who are most vocal about the "right to choose" also happen to be the ones most likely to engage in that lifestyle.
So put two and two together.
What do you do?
Stop the sex?
No. Destroy the consequences.
That's the real crux of the debate: rights without responsibilities.
Let's begin by establishing the fact that us humans, assign value to different forms of life in a very bizarre way. In the words of Melanie Joy, We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows. We love some animals and even pass laws to protect them (it's a crime to run over a dog). Yet, we eat and torture other animals without knowing why.
Carnism is the belief system, or ideology, that allows us to selectively choose which animals become our meat .... and it is sustained by complex psychological and social mechanisms.
Carnism, is also direct evidence for the case that humans have an un-scientific and irrational valuation for life. Simply speaking, no rational thought explains why we have no issues with killing a cow, but put people in prison for killing a cat.
......... from animals to humans.
A species (humans) that is so irrational with valuation of life should not be trusted with issues re: life. That said, let's give credit where it is due.
We as a society, have mostly agreed that it is not okay to kill other humans simply because they are less abled, of a different race/ color, etc. We still kill others based on nationality .. but let's ignore that for now.
Abortion
Currently, we have no issues killing fellow humans with age less than 7-8 months.
In the US, abortion laws differ State by State. But that is irrelevant. The fact is that you can have an abortion almost anywhere till the second trimester (13-28 weeks).
Contrary to popular belief, abortion in most European countries is more strict than the US, and in most cases, is allowed only till the first trimester.
So, it is well established, that you can kill a form of human life without any consequence(s) within the first 0-7 months.
Given our poor understanding of the science of life - how can developed societies be so sure about laws that result in thousands of deaths every year?
Have catch phrases and divisions like: pro-life vs. pro-choice clouded our thinking? How can anyone be comfortable with things the way they are .....?
NB: to have this debate in a serious manner, we need to take religion/politics out of the equation. Let's try and understand this issue based on science and human behavior.
I don't understand how this debate can happen without bringing politics into it. Laws are created from the government, which is politics.
We have been eating animal meat for how long??? It has been established by most societies that you do not eat cat/dog etc. a long time ago.
I do not believe in abortion, but -I think you are miss-representing yourself when you say what is bolded in red above. You are referring to still being in the womb - prior to giving birth. The way you have it phrased you are misleading people, to believe you are talking about after birth, when you are not. Since when do we add the 9 months we were in the womb to our age. We don't...
We've been eating animals forever... that doesn't make it ethical for our ancestors or us.
Animals are efficient healthy food sources... wrong, animals take from 4 to 10x the amount of resources per calorie and have many diseases and much saturated fat.
If its wrong to abort a fetus is it wrong to have contraceptives? or just not have kids? These deny kids life as well.
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LOL
