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I don't know specifically which video you are thinking about, but did it come from a US plant?
Ok... Let's talk gestation crates. I grew up on a hog farm, so I really do know a thing or two about them. To pick out gestation crates as the biggest problem you can point to is a credit to how hard farmers work to care for their livestock. When I grew up, it was generally a disaster if a sow gave birth before we could get her into the gestation crate. Half of the babies would usually be literally crushed and suffocated to death. I am sorry, nature is not a kind place either. If I were a pig, I would much rather be on a farm where the worst thing that could happen to me was that they put me in gestation crates a week before I gave birth until the babies no longer needed to nurse.
Also, pigs are not dogs. They don't require the degree of exercise that a dog does, especially a pregnant pig. If you don't want to eat meat, fine. That is cool with me. Just take a minute to visit an actual hog farm before you decide if "right is right and wrong is wrong". A little actual, personal, knowledge is all I am asking for.... of course... it is a lot easier to watch a YouTube video.
I'm not sure what the obsession is with YouTube but I never look at it.
Gestation crates are just one of the many practices that I find horrendous.
IF you grew up on a great farm where the animals were treated reasonably well and can convince me that gestation crates are very necessary and humane - then I'm all ears and it would certainly make me happy to know that this is the way most people farm.
I'll ask again - do you deny that atrocities take place in our factory farming/killing system?
When it comes to boiling an animal alive (the premise of this thread), I'll repeat ~ right is right and wrong is wrong. It is wrong to needlessly torture an animal.
You've got a whole generation of people coming up that think eating meat is just unnecessary.
And? Am I supposed to just shrug my shoulders & say "Oh well, it happens every day. Who cares."? Is there a reason why I can't have an opinion of this disgusting practice & how many people treat animals in general? And this topic is about animals being killed, not humans. If you'd like to go that route, why not just shrug your shoulders & say "Oh well. War is happening everywhere"?
You made the statement to line up some humans and slaughter them and let's see how that goes. Well, would you like me to send you around 500 links to videos where this has happened? In peaceful regions that currently not at war even? I think that humans take precedence to animals is all I'm saying. It's tragic that cats are being boiled, but to them, it's food. Just like shrimp and lobsters are food for us.
If you'd like I could send you a video of five topless Mexican women accused of cooking cocaine as they are handcuffed and executed by the Los Zetas with hatchets, machetes, and axes by hacking them into pieces. Last I checked we weren't at war with Mexico and I know that these women weren't used for food.
Besides that one, I can send you several hundred more vids if you like. None of which the humans were used for food.
There's just much bigger issues in the world right now than some country that cooks cats.
How about being upset for the ivory trade in Africa? That to me is a more senseless violence against animals.
I've visited a cow processing plant and a several chicken plants. While unpleasant, I would still argue that the cows ares not "very aware" of what's happening to them. They may hear other cows crying, and have a fight or flight instinct, but animals, until science proves otherwise, don't have cognitive awareness.
I'm saying that a cow that has been stunned, but not knocked unconscious, and is being cut apart is AWARE of what is happening to it. Are you really going to argue otherwise?
But your example doesn't fit into the point you were making. You bring up people who have committed atrocities and ask if people would have a problem with them going through a painful ordeal. The presumption is that people would have less of a problem condoning the infliction of pain on those individuals because they "deserve" it, more or less. This is not the same as boiling alive an animal that lacks the cognitive capabilities to commit acts that are considered "good" or "evil".
Your point was not of that sort. From what I gather you are making a cultural relativism argument. If you are going to use humans, a more on-point example would be something like human sacrifice or cannibalism because (a) the victim has (presumably) done nothing to merit the painful act, (b) it is shocking and outrageous conduct in most cultures, but (c) it is acceptable in the culture in which it occurs. I mean, after all cannibalism is and has been practiced and accepted in some cultures.
I would concede that the fact that it is a cat certainly certainly enhances the outrageousness of the act in most western cultures, as cats in the west are seen as pets. So in that regard yes, cultural relativism plays a part.
But what truly shocks the conscience in this particular case is the raw brutality of the act of knowingly boiling alive an animal that quite clearly is capable of feeling pain for a comparatively arbitrary benefit (it tastes better(?)).
If you want to say that the reason it shocks the conscience is because of prevailing values of western culture, I would invite you to draw a line for us. At what point do we stop hiding behind culture and accept responsibilities for our actions as human beings?
Do you get upset when the Japanese feed their customers the beating hearts of fish? Or if they slice them up while alive so that they can serve the freshest food? Is it different because they are fish? Or do you still eat sushi?
If you knew that hunters, when killing a deer, sometimes miss the heart when they shoot, and that deer may live for days before expiring. Would it matter if the hunters were American Indians? Inuit Eskimos?
Is it a different standard for them?
You made the statement to line up some humans and slaughter them and let's see how that goes. Well, would you like me to send you around 500 links to videos where this has happened? In peaceful regions that currently not at war even? I think that humans take precedence to animals is all I'm saying. It's tragic that cats are being boiled, but to them, it's food. Just like shrimp and lobsters are food for us.
If you'd like I could send you a video of five topless Mexican women accused of cooking cocaine as they are handcuffed and executed by the Los Zetas with hatchets, machetes, and axes by hacking them into pieces. Last I checked we weren't at war with Mexico and I know that these women weren't used for food.
Besides that one, I can send you several hundred more vids if you like. None of which the humans were used for food.
There's just much bigger issues in the world right now than some country that cooks cats.
How about being upset for the ivory trade in Africa? That to me is a more senseless violence against animals.
I don't even understand what you're getting at. Yeah, there are many things happening in the world, I get it. However, I have the ability to multi-task & have concern over more than one issue. One of them happens to be what we're discussing, the treatment of animals. And yes, I loathe the ivory trade, especially the fact that a beloved bull elephant was just killed. You don't need to send me videos, I've seen many. What was your point with that again?
I'm not sure what the obsession is with YouTube but I never look at it.
Gestation crates are just one of the many practices that I find horrendous.
IF you grew up on a great farm where the animals were treated reasonably well and can convince me that gestation crates are very necessary and humane - then I'm all ears and it would certainly make me happy to know that this is the way most people farm.
I'll ask again - do you deny that atrocities take place in our factory farming/killing system?
When it comes to boiling an animal alive (the premise of this thread), I'll repeat ~ right is right and wrong is wrong. It is wrong to needlessly torture an animal.
You've got a whole generation of people coming up that think eating meat is just unnecessary.
I have no doubt that there are atrocities take place in any system where animals are involved. We can't assume that every dog breeder is a "puppy mill" and we can't assume that everyone that owns a dog abuses it. Nor can we assume that every packing plant is breaking the law and abusing the animals.
I guess I don't quite know what "atrocities" you are talking about. I think we need to separate A) Horrible abuses that are already illegal from B) Things that look gross and appear bad, but are not intentionally cruel.
Regarding farms. Obviously, like I said above, you will never have any environment where animals and humans interact where there are no problems. Humans can be cruel. That being said, I must eat a little crow here. I was a little confused with terminology and assumed that what you called "gestation" crates where the same thing that we called "farrowing" crates. I was too lazy and didn't do the research to learn that they are, in fact, different things. Not that I condemn gestation crates, I just wasn't being fair to your comment by describing something you were not actually talking about. On my dad's farm we had "gestation units" where the pigs lived in groups, mostly outdoors, with shelters attached to a pen. There was room for them to walk around. They were probably more full than some people that don't understand pigs would like, but the pigs would only use a small part of the pen because they like to stay in close groups. They lived there until they were close to giving birth. I must admit not knowing much about gestation "crates". My gut reaction is that they are not really too bad because pigs, even when free ranged, don't really run around as much as horses or cows, but I don't have the first hand knowledge to defend the practice.
We shouldn't legislate animal morality on other humans in a free country.
If you don't want to do it, then don't do it. I wouldn't ever boil an animal alive, other then a lobster or a crawfish. However, I don't think it should be made illegal for other people to hurt animals.
animals must feel pain just like us humans. When I step on my dogs foot it yelps so it must be feeling pain. But these people have no qualms about boiling cats alive to eat. That can't be morally right.
We shouldn't legislate animal morality on other humans in a free country.
If you don't want to do it, then don't do it. I wouldn't ever boil an animal alive, other then a lobster or a crawfish. However, I don't think it should be made illegal for other people to hurt animals.
So you think it's ok for someone to beat their dog to death? How about throwing a bag of kittens they don't want into a river? There should be no consequences for animal cruelty? Really? If a dog has its' leg stuck in a cage, I can just cut it off with tin snips? That's what you're saying - it should not be illegal for other people to hurt animals. You sure that's the stance you want to take?
(All the things I mentioned have actually happened.)
So you think it's ok for someone to beat their dog to death? How about throwing a bag of kittens they don't want into a river? There should be no consequences for animal cruelty? Really? If a dog has its' leg stuck in a cage, I can just cut it off with tin snips? That's what you're saying - it should not be illegal for other people to hurt animals. You sure that's the stance you want to take?
(All the things I mentioned have actually happened.)
I think dogs, like cattle, like pigs, like sheep, are a owners property. As such, they have no legal rights.
While I think its deplorable to do the things you mentioned above, I do not believe they should be against the law.
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I was a little confused with terminology and assumed that what you called "gestation" crates where the same thing that we called "farrowing" crates. I was too lazy and didn't do the research to learn that they are, in fact, different things. Not that I condemn gestation crates, I just wasn't being fair to your comment by describing something you were not actually talking about.
On my dad's farm we had "gestation units" where the pigs lived in groups, mostly outdoors, with shelters attached to a pen. There was room for them to walk around. They were probably more full than some people that don't understand pigs would like, but the pigs would only use a small part of the pen because they like to stay in close groups. They lived there until they were close to giving birth. I must admit not knowing much about gestation "crates". My gut reaction is that they are not really too bad because pigs, even when free ranged, don't really run around as much as horses or cows, but I don't have the first hand knowledge to defend the practice.
