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Just out of interest, does your wife support actually enforcing current immigration laws? And, if she does why would she support someone who has been actively and publicly making sure that those immigration laws are not enforced/followed - and someone who has said that she was going to continue Obama policies in that regard?
Take away the idea that people don't like the 'wall solution' and people don't want those already in the country (which by the way would be a lot fewer if we had actually enforced existing laws as just about every country in the world, including Mexico, does) to be removed from the US ... let's just start with what is already LAW in this country .. does she support those?
You love having those who are rapists, murderers, drug dealers out on the street (actually serving in many cases much less time if any than citizens who do the same thing)?
Trump had nothing to do with those laws. He merely intends to enforce them. The fact that Obama (and probably others before him) chose NOT to enforce those laws has nothing to do with what Trump might do. Trump, I hope, will merely follow the law as it stands. You really have a problem with that?
So ... moving on with the 'wall' - that has been on the books for many years now already. The funding for it was approved (and then stolen away of course when the then incumbent presidents decided that was not the way 'they' wanted to do what might be necessary to stop the increasing flow of people across the borders (illegally). It is just a part of 'enforcement' though - whatever is necessary to 'enforce existing laws' should be done - so .. if one agrees that current law should be enforced, then the wall is really irrelevant unless the only way to do that is to build a wall.
Next ... do you and your wife like the idea that we are 'importing' illegal aliens who are less than savoury characters? And further that certain cities harbour those people (do you live in one of those 'sanctuary' cities? And if not, why not move there if you like that so much?) when it is against the law to do so and receive no consequences (in terms of funding especially) when breaking federal rules in that regard?
we can go on to address the idea of deportations .. after you answer these questions .. thanks.
Do we support current immigration laws? Without being intimately familiar with them I will say yes. I certainly support stopping further illegal immigration. I understand the many issues that it causes.
I do work in and live near a sanctuary city, Detroit. We also live in an area with one of the largest Middle Eastern populations in the US. We have also received more Syrian refugees than any state other than California. I am admittedly conflicted about this. I certainly understand the humanitarian crisis, but I am of course also concerned about security. In general though I appreciate the Middle Eastern community in Metro Detroit. Really they are no different from any other group of people. One huge benefit is the abundance of wonderful Middle Eastern restaurants in the area!
As far as deportations go, I think it is heartless to have a black and white policy that says if you're illegal, you're out. This is especially true for children who through no fault of their own were born here and grew up here. This is the only country they have ever known. And, as has been pointed out thousands of times, breaking families up seems incredibly cruel.
I don't pretend to know the solution to the illegal immigration issue. As I said, I agree illegal immigration needs to be stopped. I also agree that some currently here should be deported. It seems like we have lost the ability for nuance in this country, every discussion is all or nothing. There has to be a solution somewhere in the middle. This country still represents a dream for many people. You and I are here because somewhere along the line our ancestors decided to risk everything and seek a better life. Most of these people are no different. They realize what they've risked by coming here illegally.
I am just wondering when this is going to end? I get it, their candidate lost and they are unhappy. What I don't get at all is that candidates have lost for the last 45 elections and of the ones I recall, I don't recall protests against the winner. Get over it. You have a right to protest for sure, but what good do you think it is going to do? It is over a week already and they are still protesting. Adding insult to injury, in Oregon half of the protestors did not vote either way. Makes no sense to me at all.
Maybe they are trying to send a message that if he goes forward with some of his more controversial proposals they will not stand for it?
Maybe they are trying to send a message that if he goes forward with some of his more controversial proposals they will not stand for it?
That's exactly what is going on. I know people who are participating in some protests and they're not out of some conspiracy theory. They're normal people of all ages and walks of life who are vocalizing their displeasure at some of Trump's proposals. I've seen a huge upswing of people who are not just going to vote every couple of years and leave it at that--they're going to demonstrate, they're going to contact their legislators, they're going to organize and stay informed. If the government represents the people, then the people are going to let them know what they think. A lot of American citizens really should be looking at their knowledge of civics and government, and thinking about their role in making this country better.
Last edited by fleetiebelle; 11-17-2016 at 08:56 AM..
Do we support current immigration laws? Without being intimately familiar with them I will say yes. I certainly support stopping further illegal immigration. I understand the many issues that it causes.
I do work in and live near a sanctuary city, Detroit. We also live in an area with one of the largest Middle Eastern populations in the US. We have also received more Syrian refugees than any state other than California. I am admittedly conflicted about this. I certainly understand the humanitarian crisis, but I am of course also concerned about security. In general though I appreciate the Middle Eastern community in Metro Detroit. Really they are no different from any other group of people. One huge benefit is the abundance of wonderful Middle Eastern restaurants in the area!
As far as deportations go, I think it is heartless to have a black and white policy that says if you're illegal, you're out. This is especially true for children who through no fault of their own were born here and grew up here. This is the only country they have ever known. And, as has been pointed out thousands of times, breaking families up seems incredibly cruel.
I don't pretend to know the solution to the illegal immigration issue. As I said, I agree illegal immigration needs to be stopped. I also agree that some currently here should be deported. It seems like we have lost the ability for nuance in this country, every discussion is all or nothing. There has to be a solution somewhere in the middle. This country still represents a dream for many people. You and I are here because somewhere along the line our ancestors decided to risk everything and seek a better life. Most of these people are no different. They realize what they've risked by coming here illegally.
Thank you for answering.
I don't know the solution in those grey areas either. I do think sanctuary cities are doing more harm than good and I don't think it is good for whole cities to defy the law and still receive federal monies that could be withdrawn. I also happen to know a few very hard working really honest 'illegals' who frankly I would not want to see deported either. That is a big dilemma for me - since I believe in laws, in following them, and working to change them if they are not good laws. I also know people who came in legally after long waits and large costs and much struggle.
That said I think that ultimately we may see some (active) deportations - the ones that definitely should happen - those of the criminals we all know are here for the wrong reasons and who put others in danger - and then I think we will see over time a few conditions changed so that some, even those who are not criminals, decide to self-deport but not because they are forced to go. Some of those will decide to come back legally - I think that will be made possible for them. I also think that (or at least hope that) once some homeostasis is achieved, the immigration laws will be revisited. We need to send a message that the borders are NOT wide open but that we still welcome those who come for the right reasons.
These are moderate solutions .. and I think most of us actually are moderates at heart (no matter how we voted), not clinging to the ends of the balance beam. The media portrays us as otherwise - as polar opposites - and some idiots believe that - but I don't think it is true.
But, Obama (and Hillary if she had followed) are not anywhere near as moderate as most of us are. And they were using or going to use drastic means to pull this country completely apart - for their own purposes, not for our good. Something had to stop that. It took a strong loud man who defied everyone except the more common law abiding citizens to put on some brakes. Everything he said had to be an equal and opposite force, and a very loud one, to do that but I think we are going to see a much more moderate approach to getting us back to a solid lawful footing where we all have more of a chance to prosper once again and people don't hate each other just for existing, once the immediate crises are dealt with. Whatever we do, we must maintain sovereignty or despite what globalists may think, we will all lose the best of what makes us good and unique as human beings and as countries - our wonderful differences. The aim of the globalist is to make us all the same (with the exception of an elite group who will rule us all). Ironically, they started that process by dividing us all, making sure we warred against each other. But, ultimately they wanted dominance and for us all to be levelled on the playing field of their choice.
I don't know how anyone can argue that we don't have corruption at the highest levels of government that needs to be stopped. And, I am absolutely as a Brit might say 'gobsmacked' that the media is so biased, vindictive, manipulating, and most of it is completely untrustworthy - and yet we have raised a generation (probably 2 now) that don't even realize how they are being used by government and the media - because the schools are now so filled with indoctrinators who are warping minds so badly that those who came through that system may never recover.
It was/is time for a major reset. And not just here. People around the world are waking up and wanting the same for their countries/societies. It is going to be a bit of a rough ride for a while but I think the end goal is worth it.
The Muslim issue is quite a different story (usually - unless they came in illegally) than that of the run of the mill illegal. That one is far more complex - and ultimately more dangerous because they don't really, in most cases, wear 'their hearts on their sleeve' to be honest. They have a 'secret society' in effect and they have rules that say that they can do and say whatever they want to gain whatever they want for as long as they want in the shadows as they bide their time before suddenly claiming their prize - us and everything we hold dear. If one says .. I always lie, how can you know when they are telling truth? If one says I always tell the truth, how can we know if they ever lie?
At any rate, the Muslim issue is a much larger and scarier one than the illegal issue - and far harder to know how to deal with .. we must tread carefully there - and it will take good leadership to put us in a winning position there. I am certain that Obama and Hillary have not demonstrated that they were or will be that leader - their leanings and policies have just made it all worse. I am pretty well convinced that the only thing that will work long term is if Muslims realize they need to 'reform themselves' for their own good - which will be ours too - but how to get them to that point, if we have any influence at all .. I do not know. In the meantime we MUST be cautious and careful not to just 'trust' until we can really verify. They wish to overcome by violence, deception and critical mass. We need eyes wide open. The enemy is cunning.
Enjoy the Mediterranean restaurants you now have access to. Nothing wrong with that or those - sharing rich cultural aspects is a benefit of a new world in which we have the ability to travel and move around the globe so easily. We must also be aware though that not all is good about that same ability - because just as we can, so can the enemy - and they are among us, like it or not. Not everyone thinks about humanity as most of us do - that life is precious. Do not allow yourselves to be lulled into complacency. But, do enjoy the music, the food, the dance.
My apologies - this is all a little bit off topic - though I think the general discussion is a good one and relevant in many ways.
The impetus for sanctuary cities came from law enforcement. Without assurances to Hispanic communities that they could come forward with impunity, they would not speak to police, testify as witnesses to crimes, or even call the fire department after seeing smoke billowing from a neighbor's apartment. Law enforcement and first responders CANNOT do their jobs without the support and cooperation of the communities they serve.
The impetus for sanctuary cities came from law enforcement. Without assurances to Hispanic communities that they could come forward with impunity, they would not speak to police, testify as witnesses to crimes, or even call the fire department after seeing smoke billowing from a neighbor's apartment. Law enforcement and first responders CANNOT do their jobs without the support and cooperation of the communities they serve.
Sanctuary cities and the reasons you state for them existing would not be necessary at all if those in those 'hispanic' communities as you call them were comprised of legal citizens. A legal citizen would usually be happy to call the fire and police departments and cooperate with them if they had nothing to hide. Vicious circle - and sanctuary cities are not the way to address the issue here.
Sanctuary cities and the reasons you state for them existing would not be necessary at all if those in those 'hispanic' communities as you call them were comprised of legal citizens. A legal citizen would usually be happy to call the fire and police departments and cooperate with them if they had nothing to hide. Vicious circle - and sanctuary cities are not the way to address the issue here.
Many non-citizens live here. And rather plainly -- whether they have or can produce the required little pieces of paper or not -- many immigrants have very good reason to fear that they will be swept up and carted away. Such people do their best to lay low, thereby making the jobs of authorities much, much harder.
The impetus for sanctuary cities came from law enforcement. Without assurances to Hispanic communities that they could come forward with impunity, they would not speak to police, testify as witnesses to crimes, or even call the fire department after seeing smoke billowing from a neighbor's apartment. Law enforcement and first responders CANNOT do their jobs without the support and cooperation of the communities they serve.
I don't "blame" anyone; I simply see them as painful evidence of the gullibility of too many American voters, and in both "camps"; also our susceptibility to manipulation by Madison Avenue, Hollywood, and the so-called "mainstream" media.
I agree with you that it shouldn't be about "blame".
When I see some group protesting, I want to try to understand what their complaint is. I may agree with them, or disagree with them. But more often I find their complaints have at least some basis for complaint, and it helps me to understand our country better. For example, I don't like the tactics of the group Black Lives Matter, but I like the concept of black lives matter (note that I capitalized the formal group, but not the concept). I heartily disagree with much of the NRA; but they have some good points and I acknowledge those points; and instead of laying down and kicking and screaming, I wonder why we can't find a middle ground. And that's the big problem is this country today -- most people seem to want to have their way 100%. And that's pure selfishness.
Last edited by phetaroi; 11-17-2016 at 02:00 PM..
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