The Establishment Clause (Congress, generations, school, federal government)
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It was established SOLELY for the purpose of ensuring that the federal government could not EVER establish any one religion or denomination as "the official religion" of the US. To try and twist it to mean anything more is lunacy and revisionist.
We MUST assume that the people who actually wrote and signed off on the Establishment Clause knew what their intent was in writing it was mustn't we?
So how then, were they okay with opening with prayer? How were they okay with public schools teaching the Bible (which occurred until the 1960s)? How were they okay with scrawling bible verses and the Ten Commandments on federal buildings?
In order to believe any of what the left likes to purport as "truth" concerning the intent of the Establishment Clause, you must first believe that the founding fathers were violating the very thing THEY THEMSELVES wrote.
Correct, the establishment clause is there to prevent the federal government from creating an official religion for the country. It doesn't mean they were anti-religion, it means that all religions were accepted in this country and you could practice any religion of your choice without government interference.
It was established SOLELY for the purpose of ensuring that the federal government could not EVER establish any one religion or denomination as "the official religion" of the US. To try and twist it to mean anything more is lunacy and revisionist.
We MUST assume that the people who actually wrote and signed off on the Establishment Clause knew what their intent was in writing it was mustn't we?
So how then, were they okay with opening with prayer? How were they okay with public schools teaching the Bible (which occurred until the 1960s)? How were they okay with scrawling bible verses and the Ten Commandments on federal buildings?
In order to believe any of what the left likes to purport as "truth" concerning the intent of the Establishment Clause, you must first believe that the founding fathers were violating the very thing THEY THEMSELVES wrote.
How is this anything but absurdity and nonsense?
I may be wrong, but didn't I see you in one of the civil rights/slavery threads saying that Blacks should forget about slavery since it was over about 150 years ago? Well, that's the same way I feel about hanging on every word written by the Founding Fathers...who argued a lot (it's not as if they all had one consistent idea). I don't wear a powdered wig. Maybe it's time for you to take yours off, as well.
I may be wrong, but didn't I see you in one of the civil rights/slavery threads saying that Blacks should forget about slavery since it was over about 150 years ago? Well, that's the same way I feel about hanging on every word written by the Founding Fathers...who argued a lot (it's not as if they all had one consistent idea). I don't wear a powdered wig. Maybe it's time for you to take yours off, as well.
Did your thinking cap come off when you removed your wig?
Do you think they were violating the very clause they wrote or not?
Or is your argument simply, "that was way back then who cares what they actually MEANT"?
That's pretty much what you HAVE to claim because you certainly cannot actually point to the Constitution and try to justify the crap going on today under the guise of "Separation of church and state".
At least you are honest enough to admit that you don't care what they said, did or meant.
Last edited by chadgates; 12-14-2016 at 12:48 PM..
Did your thinking cap come off when you removed your wig?
Do you think they were violating the very clause they wrote or not?
Or is your argument simply, "that was way back then who cares what they actually MEANT"?
That's pretty much what you HAVE to claim because you certainly cannot actually point to the Constitution and try to justify the crap going on today under the guise of "Separation of church and state".
At least you are honest enough to admit that you don't care what they said, did or meant.
It isn't a question of not caring. It's a question of whether or not we should be bound to all the argued-points made by men nearly two-and-a-half centuries ago. In fact, they knew it wasn't a closed book because they talked about "in order to form a more perfect union". They didn't say "in order to form a perfect union". They knew things would need to evolve as time passed.
It isn't a question of not caring. It's a question of whether or not we should be bound to all the argued-points made by men nearly two-and-a-half centuries ago. In fact, they knew it wasn't a closed book because they talked about "in order to form a more perfect union". They didn't say "in order to form a perfect union". They knew things would need to evolve as time passed.
Yes and they allowed for a process whereby we could repeal and/or amend.
They actually thought it would get rewritten every couple of generations.
But that's NOT what we do. Instead we twist the actual word and pretend it means something else.
If you want to have an amendment that is much more far reaching about the exclusion of religion in public, then the proper way to handle that is to introduce an amendment. NOT reinterpret the 1st amendment in a way that suits the politics of the day.
Yes and they allowed for a process whereby we could repeal and/or amend.
They actually thought it would get rewritten every couple of generations.
But that's NOT what we do. Instead we twist the actual word and pretend it means something else.
If you want to have an amendment that is much more far reaching about the exclusion of religion in public, then the proper way to handle that is to introduce an amendment. NOT reinterpret the 1st amendment in a way that suits the politics of the day.
They? All of them? Which of the Founding Fathers specifically. And which did not agree?
Do you snort snuff, also? That went out of style a couple of centuries ago.
We should not feel bound to what our ancestors did two-and-a-half centuries ago in a world which they could not even begin to imagine.
If you are teaching the bible as true in a public school that is funded by taxes, then the government or state is in fact endorsing/supporting/establishing a religion..plain and simple.
Same thing with allowing only Christian objects or artifacts like the cross or nativity scenes on public land or buildings while denying other religion's symbols.
The Founders were spot on with the Establishment Clause, they simply had not thought through all the consequences of making such a statement in the First Amendment. It took many years for the courts to look at the different cases to figure it out. As mentioned above, Slavery, The right for women to vote, etc. took many years before being settled properly.
Personally I don't understand why Christians don't get this. If we instead had to read from the Quran everyday or have to pray to Mecca at school 5 times a day or had Allah in Arabic script instead of the cross on buildings, they would be going crazy. Keeping government and religion separate is exactly what the establishment clause was for.
They? All of them? Which of the Founding Fathers specifically. And which did not agree?
Do you snort snuff, also? That went out of style a couple of centuries ago.
We should not feel bound to what our ancestors did two-and-a-half centuries ago in a world which they could not even begin to imagine.
THEN WRITE AN AMENDMENT AND GET IT PASSED.
THAT is the constitutional process. You don't just start reinterpreting what is plain to coincide with whatever political whim happens to be the flavor of the day.
If you are teaching the bible as true in a public school that is funded by taxes, then the government or state is in fact endorsing/supporting/establishing a religion..plain and simple.
Same thing with allowing only Christian objects or artifacts like the cross or nativity scenes on public land or buildings while denying other religion's symbols.
The Founders were spot on with the Establishment Clause, they simply had not thought through all the consequences of making such a statement in the First Amendment. It took many years for the courts to look at the different cases to figure it out. As mentioned above, Slavery, The right for women to vote, etc. took many years before being settled properly.
Personally I don't understand why Christians don't get this. If we instead had to read from the Quran everyday or have to pray to Mecca at school 5 times a day or had Allah in Arabic script instead of the cross on buildings, they would be going crazy. Keeping government and religion separate is exactly what the establishment clause was for.
"Being settled properly" is writing and passing an amendment.
To free the slaves they PASSED AN AMENDMENT.
To give women the right to vote they PASSED AN AMENDMENT.
The judges didn't simply reinterpret anything already written.
THAT is a big difference.
Personally I don't understand why anyone can't get something so fundamental.
Your last sentence begs you to answer my original questions:
How were they okay with opening EVERY session of Congress (STILL DO) with prayer?
How were they okay with public schools teaching the Bible (which occurred until the 1960s)?
How were they okay with scrawling bible verses and the Ten Commandments on federal buildings?
Were the very people who wrote and agreed on the Establishment Clause violating what they themselves had just written and passed?
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