Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Read the entire article and see how common this scenario happens. Next time your sitting in on jury duty, remember these things. and remember that prosecutor who smugly boasts a 100% conviction rate, or the Fed system who touts a 98% conviction rate. Imagine all the good ole boy patting on the backside, that goes on behind the scenes. After you do this, make damn sure, they present and produce..........."beyond a reasonable doubt" Think about what those words really mean before rendering your decision. You still control the lives of others and still have the final say. It is the American system of freedom, that you alone can tarnish for all, or save the day and do the right thing. Think about how you might feel, if you were a victim of this sort of conduct that happens all the time. Rein in your quick judgment and do the right thing. Make them prove to YOU, who did what.
This is one of over a dozen articles of its kind I've recently read as a criminology major. God bless defense attorneys! Yes, some are scum, some are cheats, some are liars, but when these guys come for you, you will kiss the ground they walk on.
I do think most LEO's are ethical and moral. However, our Justice System (in general) is full of loopholes , a Defendant with money often has an advantage , and punishment for the Guilty often does not fit the crime committed (too lax) ... and the System does not portray sufficient detterance to crime in society.
Read the entire article and see how common this scenario happens. Next time your sitting in on jury duty, remember these things. and remember that prosecutor who smugly boasts a 100% conviction rate, or the Fed system who touts a 98% conviction rate. Imagine all the good ole boy patting on the backside, that goes on behind the scenes. After you do this, make damn sure, they present and produce..........."beyond a reasonable doubt" Think about what those words really mean before rendering your decision. You still control the lives of others and still have the final say. It is the American system of freedom, that you alone can tarnish for all, or save the day and do the right thing. Think about how you might feel, if you were a victim of this sort of conduct that happens all the time. Rein in your quick judgment and do the right thing. Make them prove to YOU, who did what.
This is one of over a dozen articles of its kind I've recently read as a criminology major. God bless defense attorneys! Yes, some are scum, some are cheats, some are liars, but when these guys come for you, you will kiss the ground they walk on.
Your thoughts.............
I read up until "[SIZE=-1]Fingerprint forgery is a great fiction plot device, but, in reality, it does not happen in common crimes"[/SIZE]
I read up until "[SIZE=-1]Fingerprint forgery is a great fiction plot device, but, in reality, it does not happen in common crimes"[/SIZE]
That is what I had thought too, but I read further. You selectively read and interpreted the article. Fingerprint forgery is great fiction in CRIMES. I.E. A criminal who uses a fake fingerprint when robbing a bank. In this case, the criminal bank robber will purposely plant fake fingerprints to elude detection. That is what the article is referencing as fiction or not common.
As for Law Enforcement and investigators using fakes, it is VERY common and happens all the time.
That is the entire point of the article and you should have read on.....
That is what I had thought too, but I read further. You selectively read and interpreted the article. Fingerprint forgery is great fiction in CRIMES. I.E. A criminal who uses a fake fingerprint when robbing a bank. In this case, the criminal bank robber will purposely plant fake fingerprints to elude detection. That is what the article is referencing as fiction or not common.
As for Law Enforcement and investigators using fakes, it is VERY common and happens all the time.
That is the entire point of the article and you should have read on.....
WAIT who interpreted it?
[SIZE=-1]Conclusion
The vast majority of fingerprint experts are honest, ethical people. Most are committed to scientific examinations free of bias or prejudice. That vast majority would find it highly insulting if they were asked to participate in a scheme to fabricate fingerprint evidence. But there are a few dishonest police officers and a few dishonest fingerprint experts, just as there are a few dishonest prosecutors and a few dishonest defense attorneys.
[/SIZE]
Fake finerprints are a fiction writers dream as is the article written.
This post was a test, and it has proven beyond any reasonable doubt, that people cannot read the English language. You all get a F so far. Actually read it from top to bottom and learn something. Specific cases are cited and there are thousands of them.
Again, fingerprint forgery does not happen in common CRIMES. IE. a criminal uses fake finger prints to commit a criminal act. Read, slowly what you are reading and take it all in, word for word.
Fake finerprints are a fiction writers dream as is the article written.
Correct, texdav.
I read the article "from top to bottom." Ridiculous and unsupported in your wild generalizations, such as:
"As for Law Enforcement and investigators using fakes, it is VERY common and happens all the time."
Oh, you mean cases from the 1930's?? In this day and age how on earth are they going to be able to do that? Do you mean the machine fakes the fingerprints? And this federal crime happens "all the time"? BTW the mysterious machine is controlled by the FBI...
Let's hope to goodness you don't have fantasies of becoming an attorney. You can't discern hype from fact by your posts. I know many, many criminal defense attorneys. They huff and puff about law enforcement, it's their PR shtick. However, none but neophytes would waste their time on this ancient, slanted and prejudicial mis-information.
Read the entire article and see how common this scenario happens. Next time your sitting in on jury duty, remember these things. and remember that prosecutor who smugly boasts a 100% conviction rate, or the Fed system who touts a 98% conviction rate. Imagine all the good ole boy patting on the backside, that goes on behind the scenes. After you do this, make damn sure, they present and produce..........."beyond a reasonable doubt" Think about what those words really mean before rendering your decision. You still control the lives of others and still have the final say. It is the American system of freedom, that you alone can tarnish for all, or save the day and do the right thing. Think about how you might feel, if you were a victim of this sort of conduct that happens all the time. Rein in your quick judgment and do the right thing. Make them prove to YOU, who did what.
This is one of over a dozen articles of its kind I've recently read as a criminology major. God bless defense attorneys! Yes, some are scum, some are cheats, some are liars, but when these guys come for you, you will kiss the ground they walk on.
Your thoughts.............
I did read the entire article, including old cases that were cited, and while a poster did post part of the conclusions here is the rest. I used to work with district attorneys, so of course investigators, police officers etc. as well as many years on the 'other side of the table' so to speak. This article brings up many points. It would be interesting to find actual statistics of the number of cases that were thrown out or overturned due to instances like this, because while like in any profession there are bad seeds, the majority of law enforcement and prosecutors are very dedicated, ethical and care more about justice than another notch in their belt. I would be willing to bet with proper research, possibly Westlaw or other legal research venues would contain more information and while it might take some time, but with thorough research, I'd bet the results would show that this is not an every day or overwhelming majority. Your comments seem to be directed towards law enforcement (police officers, forensic scientists for the prosecution) and prosecutors so I am assuming you plan a career as a criminal defense attorney? Well, good on ya 'cause they sure as heck get paid a lot more than prosecutors or police officers.
Conclusion
The vast majority of fingerprint experts are honest, ethical people. Most are committed to scientific examinations free of bias or prejudice.That vast majority would find it highly insulting if they were asked to participate in a scheme to fabricate fingerprint evidence. But there are a few dishonest police officers and a few dishonest fingerprint experts, just as there are a few dishonest prosecutors and a few dishonest defense attorneys.
It must also be noted that there are many good, honest fingerprint experts who are not experts in fabricated evidence. Therefore, when fabrication is suspected, it is important to seek the advice of an expert in detecting fabricated fingerprint evidence, not just an expert in identification. At the very least, a consulting expert should have extensive experience in developing, lifting, and photographing latent fingerprint evidence. A good defense expert should be both knowledgeable and constantly vigilant for the warning signs of fabrication. If the police department is using digital images, the expert should also be a digital imaging expert or, at least, consult with a digital imaging expert familiar with the imaging system used by the police if any suspicions are aroused.
There are no national statistics kept either on erroneous identifications (honest mistakes) or on cases of fingerprint fabrication, so the figures given in this concluding paragraph represent a purely subjective guess on the part of the author. The number of true erroneous identifications that have made it to the trial stage in the United States in the past century maynumber in the dozens, perhaps into the hundreds. Cases of fabricated fingerprints that have been used against defendants in that same time period number well into the hundreds, possibly into the thousands.
While it is important to review fingerprint identifications and evidence for accuracy, it should be considered equally important to examine fingerprint evidence for its integrity. Like human beings in general, police officers not only make occasional honest mistakes, they also occasionally commit crimes. The crime of fabrication of evidence is, perhaps, the worst crime of all for a police officer to commit" End of Conclusion of Author.
So since you're majoring in criminology, maybe do more actual research on all of the venues where you can pull up stats that show the number of cases tossed due to tainted evidence or were overturned at the appellate level.
Last edited by JustJoy; 09-15-2009 at 09:36 PM..
Reason: Typo
The point being, is that anyone with a high school science background and a little ambition can fabricate fingerprint evidense.
The point also being, that since we know how easily accomplished fingerprint fabrication can be acheived, just how powerful of evidence can it really be in a court setting?
]The point being, that if you are sitting on a jury and all the prosecution can present, is fingerprint evidence, perhaps you should reconsider your guilty verdict.
]The point being, that yes, most law officers and investigators are ethical, and would never consider such fabrication, but even if 1% are fabricating cases and building their own evidence, this equates to thousands of erroneous convictions. Something many here seem to take no interest in.........until it happens to you, then you're sure to wet your pants and cry like a little school girl.
If you read the entire article, you can see, that the association for criminal defense attorneys (a highly regarded and ethical organization contrary to their title) estimates that this practice is far more common then many might believe. While most officers do not engage in such conduct, it is estimated that many do and have. It does not take many, to send thousands of people to prison based on bad evidence. They base this estimate on past cases and the ease by which it was done.
When you take the pressure these guys are under. The ego driven officer, the means to conduct the fabrication and the frustration of loosing a case, it's easy to see how it happens.
Basically, anyone with any form of fingerprint evidence gathering training, can lift a fingerprint from one object and place it on another. Fingerprints left behind on such objects as paint, glazing, tape, etc, can actually allow for the fabricator to manufacture as many fake fingerprings as they like. They can make a "fingerprint stamp" of the fingerprint lifted.
Anyone who is a copyist can easily, make a fingerprint stamp, from a lifted fingerprint.
And contrary to what you may believe, Iam not anti-law, that is not the point of my post. The point was, should we reconsider the value of fingerprint evidence, especially when it stands alone as the sole factor in conviction, as is often the case.
Last edited by WilliamHarman; 09-16-2009 at 08:30 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
In this day and age how on earth are they going to be able to do that? Do you mean the machine fakes the fingerprints? And this federal crime happens "all the time"? BTW the mysterious machine is controlled by the FBI...
