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I thought I'd post this and get some opinions on this shot gun. It belonged to my grandfather and I inherited it. My Grandfather was from a very small European country within the borders of Italy called the Republic of San Marino. This was one of his hunting shotguns. He died in the early 1960s, was born in the late 1800s. I traveled to Europe in the 1980s and picked it up from relatives and brought it back with me. I went through all kinds of hoops importing it. I had to have all the proper documentation from the Italian government which took weeks to acquire since the gun had to travel through Italy and an Italian airport.
Once here, at Los Angeles airport it disappeared. I found out customs and or ATF confiscated it and brought it to Terminal Island in Long Beach even though it had all the documentation that it needed from the Italian government. I went to Terminal Island where it was being held and was asked 100 questions about how I acquired it and why I was bringing it into the U.S. They finally released it to me.
Anyway, it's been with me ever since. I have no intentions of selling it and have no idea if it's even worth anything but I thought I'd post about it and get some opinions as to how old you think it might be and maybe even which European country it was made in. It seems logical that it would be Italian made, but someone once told be it looked English. My Grandfather owned several farms, a mill and a very large house so he wasn't a pauper by any means which makes me think he would have had good quality things.
I don't know anything about guns. I've been to one gun show my entire life and didn't see anything like it. Your opinions are welcome.
Last edited by marino760; 08-11-2016 at 10:52 AM..
Caplock muzzleloader, engraved (probably by hand?). A maker's name would help, there should be one on there somewhere (unless it has been worn off).
The caplock ignition system was patented by Alexander Forsyth in 1807, and that does not appear to be a conversion from flintlock, so the piece is no older than that. There was also a delay in major production until Forsyth's patents expired so the date would probably be even somewhat later. The date would run somewhere between then and the introduction [relatively] modern breech-loading shotshells.
So, date around mid 1800s, maybe a little later, perhaps a custom piece with the engraving which would increase the value, if a famous maker the value would increase a little more...offset by the obvious wear and scratches.
Actually, it's a double barrel percussion, not muzzle loader. I did find some symbols and letters/numbers. I don't know if they are visible in this picture.
The numbers are very small but I believe are 138 and 14M. The word "choke" is also enscribed. No makers name. Perhaps the maker is represented by the symbols. The letters CM also appear nearby and the words "Not For Ball" I believe, and larger numbers 6291. The last picture shows an emblem with very old style writing.
The first and second pictures show the lever to break open the action. The buttons on the breech are not nipples for caps, they are the ends of the firing pins. It is a breech loading center fire cartridge gun!
Did you find the markings you showed under the forearm? If not, remove the wood forearm and see what is stamped on the barrels under it.
It looks like a fine weapon. Some of those old scatterguns are quite valuable!
Good luck in identifying it.
Yes, correct in that if you push the lever over to one side, the gun opens up so you can put ammo into it. If the bottom forearm is removed, then when you push the lever to one side, it separates the barrel completely. Those markings are indeed under the forearm and visible when the forearm is removed.
May I ask how you came to the conclusion that it's a breech loading center fire cartridge gun? Do the imprinted words "choke" and "not for ball" tell you that? How interesting! I've never heard of a scatter gun. I'll have to look that up.
I suppose the fact that those words are written in English and not Italian would mean the gun was purchased in England or imported from there to Italy and then to San Marino.
Last edited by marino760; 08-11-2016 at 06:10 PM..
Scattergun is an old West term for a shotgun. So called because it "scatters" the load (lead shot, nails, tacks, whatever) over a wide area. Sorry for the confusion.
I knew it was a break action center fire cartridge gun because my step-father had one very similar to it when I was a kid.
One VERY important thing to remember, have it inspected to see if it has "Damascus" barrels. Those barrels were made by wrapping wire around a form and welding it. If it does, you can NOT safely shoot modern ammunition in it. The barrel will likely split or unwrap! If you want to shoot it, use ONLY low base, low pressure cartridges, preferably black powder.
"Choke" and "Not For Ball" tells you that both barrels are choked down at the muzzle, and you may NOT use ball or slug ammunition. It will split the end of the barrel!
I agree with you, OP, the fact that "choke" and "not for ball" are stamped in English would make me think it may be English-made. It's an early cartridge shotgun, so early that it looks a lot like a caplock. You can see in the photo that the hammers hit firing pins, you can open the action and push the firing pin forward with your finger, you'll see it protrude from the breech. Choke means the barrels are choke-bored, most modern shotguns are, this is a constriction at the muzzle to tend to make the pattern not spread as fast as a "cylinder" bore would let it (no constriction at the muzzle). "Not for Ball" is related to this - since the barrels are choked, a full bore size round lead ball would damage the chokes, or could if fired through the choke.
I'm not sure if this gun is intended for black powder or smokeless, may or may not be OK to use with modern ammo. I wouldn't use modern ammo in it until a gunsmith examined it and said OK.
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