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I read it as that OP precisely underlines that places w high development of technologies will have more leisure to develop their creative potential. Not sure what would be the catalyst though. Many places are mainly about "direct sales of cars, houses, beers and burgers". Art is a luxury a lot of people don't need, or rather don't know they need.
That is exactly what I am saying. This is a "pedestrian", solidly middle class area. Not there there is anything wrong with that, but it does not foster the type of environment in which art flourishes. Art comes from a few different places; challenging the status quo, intellectualism, disenfranchisement, existentialism. Those just are not traits you find in HR. New York, or a place like Detroit, Baltimore, perhaps. The other thing about this place is that it can be ultra-conservative at times. That fosters a different type of artistic vibe than what you would find in a liberal town. If fosters a different appreciation for the arts.
That is exactly what I am saying. This is a "pedestrian", solidly middle class area. Not there there is anything wrong with that, but it does not foster the type of environment in which art flourishes. Art comes from a few different places; challenging the status quo, intellectualism, disenfranchisement, existentialism. Those just are not traits you find in HR. New York, or a place like Detroit, Baltimore, perhaps. The other thing about this place is that it can be ultra-conservative at times. That fosters a different type of artistic vibe than what you would find in a liberal town. If fosters a different appreciation for the arts.
I suppose that is a downside of having a large population of people that are relatively content with their lives and find meaning through work, God, friends and family. Everything comes with a tradeoff of some sort.
I suppose that is a downside of having a large population of people that are relatively content with their lives and find meaning through work, God, friends and family. Everything comes with a trade off of some sort.
Not to say that there are not people like that in a lot of metropolitan areas. In Ohio, that is pretty much the status quo, and it is the case for a lot of America, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. What I am stating, is that you do not have that diversity of thought in this area. There are small pockets here and there, but for the most part this is just a regular place, with people that are content with regular things.
Your response precludes that people think that there are not regular everyday working people in New York, and that simply is not the case. There are a number of factors that go into areas like New York, LA, Chicago and Atlanta.
Manufacturing peaked decades before it peaked in the rest of the country, say in the thirties and forties, whereas the Midwest held on until the sixties, seventies, and the base continued to move to the Southeast.
Economic diversity. In New York and Chicago this means the financial sector. In LA and Atlanta it means the entertainment industry. NY is also a huge town for the television news industry, and of course they have major record labels as well. LA was a huge aerospace town, Atlanta is still a big town for education, particularly when it comes to HBCUs.
A huge arts scene, though not as pronounced in Atlanta as much of that is an out growth of Southern hip-hop, but nonetheless, huge amounts of money going into the arts scene. In New York you might find cultural venues everywhere, including disadvantaged or poor communities.
This is where Hampton Roads differ
Reliance upon the federal government to keep the economy moving. Differences between HR and NOVA is that in HR, it is the military, in NOVA, it is outgrowth of expansion of the federal government into the suburbs of DC.
Manufacturing never played a huge part to begin with. Some exceptions; the shipyards, which play a major part of any port town, Ford, which was here until recently,
Isolated, non-concurrent, disparate arts scene. Hampton Roads is not unique in this respect. It is no different than say, Dayton, OH, or Akron, when it comes to the arts. It is there for those who want it, who can appreciate it, but it is not a living, breathing, part of day to day life except for those who work in those industries.
For all of the criticism HR gets there are hundreds of cities and metropolitan areas that are exactly like HR when it comes to the arts. No, there are not hundreds of abandoned warehouses that artists can move into and rebuild, which would be the catalyst for gentrification of a neighborhood, that is not going to happen. People that are looking for that should move to cities that were built around a strong manufacturing sector forty years ago. No, you won't see someone break dancing on the sidewalk in the middle of the day, and you won't catch someone playing a bucket as a drum and there are no Flash Mobs on The Tide where a party breaks out of thin air.
But that does not mean that the norm is for American cities to have that type of environment to begin with. Some cities have it, some don't. Sometimes Hollywood glamorizes it, sometimes it does not. Flashdance is a great case for what was, to most of America, a forgotten city, glamorized and immortalized on film. You have seedy strip joints, kids break dancing downtown, a rugged, steel working atmosphere, felt like a great place to live in the eighties.
Baltimore, as bad as that place is, looks great on film. Hollywood always manages to find the subculture in these forgotten neighborhoods; West Philadelphia for example, and makes them seem really cool and you want to be part of the action and you think you should move there. Even Boston seems really cool, when you watch The Departed. If 100 movies were shot in HR it would seem really cool too, and artists would see it and want to move here, but that will never happen.
Hampton Roads is probably no different than LA was back in the early nineties when they were first starting to build their train system, and tie the city together. New York is New York, DC is DC, stop comparing HR to other metropolitan areas that are several times the size of those place because it might never be those places. If I wanted New York, I would just move to New York. At the same time, you can't look at a small, over hyped, amplified aspect of a town and say that everyone is living that way. As many people as HR has, New York has that same population living under the poverty line. I don't think you want to see a million people, give or take, on welfare, Section 8, or completely disenfranchised, around here.
Your response precludes that people think that there are not regular everyday working people in New York, and that simply is not the case. There are a number of factors that go into areas like New York, LA, Chicago and Atlanta.
I don't think I precluded anything, and I certainly didn't make any direct comparisons to New York, LA, Chicago, or Atlanta. Only you (and maybe others in the thread) made those comparisons.
I was just making the point that we have very few poor, very few rich, a lot of middle class, a lot of christians, and a lot of military. There is not a lot to be discontent with or rebel against aside from the high rent (thanks to the military), traffic, and maybe christianity if you want to rebel against that. Unemployment is low, there are very few ghettos. there are not a lot of "ethnic" neighborhoods (people all live among each other save for a few areas of Norfolk, Portsmouth, and Newport News) and most find their meaning in life through religion, hobbies, family, and friends. That describes the core population of HR by a long shot and I would contend that the percentage of HR's that fall in those categories is far larger than most of the areas you described. Maybe that leads to the lack of "diversity of thought" as you stated.
Of course there are large populations like I described earlier in all metros... society could not function if it were just a bunch of hipsters running around doing flash mobs and hula hooping on street corners. LOL. Someone needs to collect the garbage, deliver the groceries, fix peoples cars, and do other tasks which require measurable results on a timetable that people can rely on.
Other than that I really didn't try to inject anything into the conversation. You are right, whatever "it" is that makes young hip people want to move somewhere... HR really doesn't have it right now. And there is nothing wrong with that. For every Occupy Wallstreet organizer that has a good understanding of macroeconomics there are 5000 kids that think they should be able to get a degree in whatever they want, shouldn't have to pay for it, and should be guaranteed a good job when they graduate doing whatever it is they are "passionate" about. The latter annoy the **** out of me so if we miss out on a few creative geniuses but get to avoid a bunch of self-riteous contrarians then I think it is a good trade off. Of course I am being a bit facetious... but that was all I was getting at. I don't think I really disagreed with you on anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goofy328
Hampton Roads is probably no different than LA was back in the early nineties when they were first starting to build their train system, and tie the city together. New York is New York, DC is DC, stop comparing HR to other metropolitan areas that are several times the size of those place because it might never be those places. If I wanted New York, I would just move to New York. At the same time, you can't look at a small, over hyped, amplified aspect of a town and say that everyone is living that way. As many people as HR has, New York has that same population living under the poverty line. I don't think you want to see a million people, give or take, on welfare, Section 8, or completely disenfranchised, around here.
I made no comparison, I am assuming you are making this as a general comment or perhaps trying to pre-empt a possible response??
I agree 100%, I don't think the upsides of living in NYC outweigh the downsides... hence I live here and I deal with the lack of "excitement" by doing boring things like surfing, playing basketball, golfing, lifting weights, working on cars, playing xbox, hanging out with friends, and spending time with family when I'm not at my "boring and uncreative job" writing computer code and doing scientific analyses which require tangible and measurable results. If I see a flash mob break out on the train, I am gonna get off at the next stop and walk down to the next train so that I can keep reading my book in peace. haha
I don't think I precluded anything, and I certainly didn't make any direct comparisons to New York, LA, Chicago, or Atlanta. Only you (and maybe others in the thread) made those comparisons.
I was just making the point that we have very few poor, very few rich, a lot of middle class, a lot of christians, and a lot of military. There is not a lot to be discontent with or rebel against aside from the high rent (thanks to the military), traffic, and maybe christianity if you want to rebel against that. Unemployment is low, there are very few ghettos. there are not a lot of "ethnic" neighborhoods (people all live among each other save for a few areas of Norfolk, Portsmouth, and Newport News) and most find their meaning in life through religion, hobbies, family, and friends. That describes the core population of HR by a long shot and I would contend that the percentage of HR's that fall in those categories is far larger than most of the areas you described. Maybe that leads to the lack of "diversity of thought" as you stated.
Of course there are large populations like I described earlier in all metros... society could not function if it were just a bunch of hipsters running around doing flash mobs and hula hooping on street corners. LOL. Someone needs to collect the garbage, deliver the groceries, fix peoples cars, and do other tasks which require measurable results on a timetable that people can rely on.
Other than that I really didn't try to inject anything into the conversation. You are right, whatever "it" is that makes young hip people want to move somewhere... HR really doesn't have it right now. And there is nothing wrong with that. For every Occupy Wallstreet organizer that has a good understanding of macroeconomics there are 5000 kids that think they should be able to get a degree in whatever they want, shouldn't have to pay for it, and should be guaranteed a good job when they graduate doing whatever it is they are "passionate" about. The latter annoy the **** out of me so if we miss out on a few creative geniuses but get to avoid a bunch of self-riteous contrarians then I think it is a good trade off. Of course I am being a bit facetious... but that was all I was getting at. I don't think I really disagreed with you on anything.
I made no comparison, I am assuming you are making this as a general comment or perhaps trying to pre-empt a possible response??
I agree 100%, I don't think the upsides of living in NYC outweigh the downsides... hence I live here and I deal with the lack of "excitement" by doing boring things like surfing, playing basketball, golfing, lifting weights, working on cars, playing xbox, hanging out with friends, and spending time with family when I'm not at my "boring and uncreative job" writing computer code and doing scientific analyses which require tangible and measurable results. If I see a flash mob break out on the train, I am gonna get off at the next stop and walk down to the next train so that I can keep reading my book in peace. haha
Cool. I don't mind a flash mob. I was on the train in NY somewhere in Manhattan and a bunch of Latinos came on and broke out in song, collected their money and got off on the next stop. Guitar and everything. I should have recorded it on my cell phone everyone else was I was too busy watching it. I don't know if that would ever happen in HR; I guess it depends on what the flash mob was doing some flash mobs come in peace some don't. I think a flash mob in boring Manhattan is quite different than one in Chicago with a bunch of goons tearing up the place. To clarify, I wasn't calling the aforementioned event a flash mob, it read a bit confusing when I went back over it, just giving an example of the random nature of New York, and why some tourists get emotionally tied up with the place.
I love everything about NYC except for the expense. I already feel house poor here in HR, just to pay the same amount for one third the space no thank you. Then again a lot of people are probably already doing that in some of the new condos that have been built in the last 6 years. If I were 20, I would be okay with it, but at my age it is more important to settle down in a boring neighborhood; if I were to ever have children I would rather a good school district and then I could just drive to wherever the excitement is at.
Hampton Roads does court the middle. In a place like New York you have the insanely rich and the insanely poor. Billionaires on the same train with people making a fraction of the poverty level. You don't see that in HR, but you see in cities like all of those discussed in this thread. Sometimes young people naively assume that because the place isn't filthy and there isn't a Skid Row with hundreds of people begging for bread that the place is bourgeois and uppity. I don't think that describes HR. If anything about the worst you will get around here is your typical NIMBY that doesn't want to see progress because they feel that it will affect their way of life or that they do not want to pay for it. Doesn't help matters that the local newspapers are in bed with those people and likes to get them all stirred up to sell a few copies and have a lively and colorful discussion. To be honest that happens everywhere; it is just that the Pilot allows that discussion to go on unfiltered and for the most part, unmoderated (unless profanity or ethic slurs occur). Try doing that in a polite newspaper like the New York Times though and see how far that discussion gets, if it does at all. Everyone has a big vocabulary and this passive aggressive, mean, evil way of using 1,000 words to call you a prick. You don't see that in the Pilot; now I am not sure what that says about HR, if anything, but you have to wonder, if people hate NY that much, why do they live there. I never met such a group of lovable, yet misanthropic people, and that is only spending a day here, a day there, in the place. I could imagine what it is like to live there.
Cool. I don't mind a flash mob. I was on the train in NY somewhere in Manhattan and a bunch of Latinos came on and broke out in song, collected their money and got off on the next stop. Guitar and everything. I should have recorded it on my cell phone everyone else was I was too busy watching it. I don't know if that would ever happen in HR; I guess it depends on what the flash mob was doing some flash mobs come in peace some don't. I think a flash mob in boring Manhattan is quite different than one in Chicago with a bunch of goons tearing up the place. To clarify, I wasn't calling the aforementioned event a flash mob, it read a bit confusing when I went back over it, just giving an example of the random nature of New York, and why some tourists get emotionally tied up with the place.
I love everything about NYC except for the expense. I already feel house poor here in HR, just to pay the same amount for one third the space no thank you. Then again a lot of people are probably already doing that in some of the new condos that have been built in the last 6 years. If I were 20, I would be okay with it, but at my age it is more important to settle down in a boring neighborhood; if I were to ever have children I would rather a good school district and then I could just drive to wherever the excitement is at.
Hampton Roads does court the middle. In a place like New York you have the insanely rich and the insanely poor. Billionaires on the same train with people making a fraction of the poverty level. You don't see that in HR, but you see in cities like all of those discussed in this thread. Sometimes young people naively assume that because the place isn't filthy and there isn't a Skid Row with hundreds of people begging for bread that the place is bourgeois and uppity. I don't think that describes HR. If anything about the worst you will get around here is your typical NIMBY that doesn't want to see progress because they feel that it will affect their way of life or that they do not want to pay for it. Doesn't help matters that the local newspapers are in bed with those people and likes to get them all stirred up to sell a few copies and have a lively and colorful discussion. To be honest that happens everywhere; it is just that the Pilot allows that discussion to go on unfiltered and for the most part, unmoderated (unless profanity or ethic slurs occur). Try doing that in a polite newspaper like the New York Times though and see how far that discussion gets, if it does at all. Everyone has a big vocabulary and this passive aggressive, mean, evil way of using 1,000 words to call you a prick. You don't see that in the Pilot; now I am not sure what that says about HR, if anything, but you have to wonder, if people hate NY that much, why do they live there. I never met such a group of lovable, yet misanthropic people, and that is only spending a day here, a day there, in the place. I could imagine what it is like to live there.
I love reading the pilot comments sections... where else can you get basically unedited arguments between NIMBYs, hipsters, military, rednecks, academics, tea partiers, developers, and progressives all in the same place?
I think it is going to be interesting to see how this place progresses over the next couple of decades. How will light rail expand? How will Waterside be redeveloped? How will VB town center grow? How will things like AsiaTown, the Laskin Road Gateway, Historic Kempsville, and the Pharrell Williams resource center change the vibe in VB? How will the expansion of the Port impact the local economy? How will passenger rail in norfolk improve mobility?
I think there are tons of positive developments going on around here and the geographic location is great. If we can just get on the same page regarding infrastructure before half the place is underwater it will be an awesome place for all ages in my lifetime.
I love reading the pilot comments sections... where else can you get basically unedited arguments between NIMBYs, hipsters, military, rednecks, academics, tea partiers, developers, and progressives all in the same place?
I think it is going to be interesting to see how this place progresses over the next couple of decades. How will light rail expand? How will Waterside be redeveloped? How will VB town center grow? How will things like AsiaTown, the Laskin Road Gateway, Historic Kempsville, and the Pharrell Williams resource center change the vibe in VB? How will the expansion of the Port impact the local economy? How will passenger rail in norfolk improve mobility?
I think there are tons of positive developments going on around here and the geographic location is great. If we can just get on the same page regarding infrastructure before half the place is underwater it will be an awesome place for all ages in my lifetime.
Is the Pharrell Williams resource center actually a go? I heard about it a few years back but thought it had never made any progress. Never heard about AsiaTown either. I think that the Laskin Road Gateway is a great idea. All of the projects you mentioned are going to be seen through. It is matter of money.
To be honest, you will see Laskin Road Gateway completed before you see the final phase of Town Center. I checked out the website for AsiaTown; it is interesting, but seems to be a mixed use development that just happens to be called AsiaTown. None of the flair of the Chinatown you see in a lot of major cities.
There will always be new projects built in this area. The most ambitious, are the most contentious. For example the Pembroke Master Plan is vanglorious, but I doubt I would ever see it in my lifetime. This is where most cities the size of Virginia Beach have already been many years ago. It would put Virginia Beach on a competitive platform with cities its same size, either physically or population wise, like say, Cleveland, or Pittsburgh, but is too disruptive and ambitious. Trillions of dollars later ...
If Norfolk can ever do something with Waterside it could spark another wave of development. Personally, I think they should demolish the housing projects downtown and reclaim that land. The new main libraries in Virginia Beach and Norfolk are exciting projects that no one ever talks about. I love new libraries; they are not the sexiest projects but they are sustainable. Those are buildings that never go away. For that same reason I also love new schools and hospitals.
Development in Virginia Beach, particularly in Pembroke and the Oceanfront, really reminds you of the seventies. That is why new development is needed, to bring this place into the 21st century with new energy. Seventies and eighties suburban development was great for its time, but no one is doing that anymore. I am hopeful that Virginia Beach will eventually shed that image. Town Center was a great step forward; now the projects on the Oceanfront and some of these infill projects need to be completed to give a true sense of continuity that is sorely missing.
Light rail in VB will eventually occur, despite the naysayers. It will be expensive, but it will happen. Did you hear about the plan to connect the bus to the airport in Norfolk? I had no idea people had to walk a mile, or pay for a mile in a cab. That really sucks, hopefully HRT gets the numbers and HRT sticks by this experimental line.
You might also want to check out Aura in Chesapeake. It is a mid-size development project that can be seen from the road looking at Old Navy in Greenbrier. I had no idea you can actually see it on the other side of the parking looking towards the front of those stores. The skyline in Chesapeake is growing, in plain sight unrecognized by anybody!
The skyline of chesapeake has been growing for at least 9 years. I watched the trees disappear and the office buildings as well as apartment complexes and condos pop up.
The business centers on Executive and Crossways will be overcrowding soon, but that's how they wanted it to be. The shopping center off these roads have everything the business traveler may need. Reminds me of Charlotte in some ways.
The skyline of chesapeake has been growing for at least 9 years. I watched the trees disappear and the office buildings as well as apartment complexes and condos pop up.
The business centers on Executive and Crossways will be overcrowding soon, but that's how they wanted it to be. The shopping center off these roads have everything the business traveler may need. Reminds me of Charlotte in some ways.
Yeah, it is crazy how much Greenbrier/Chesapeake has changed since I was in high school, I hardly even recognized Chesapeake when I moved back really (left in '02).
Between Greenbrier, South Norfolk, Downtown Norfolk, Downtown Portsmouth, Centerville, Newtown, and Pembroke you can almost see a core starting to form on the southside. All of these areas are within a 7 or 8 mile radius (as the crow flies) from the old Ford plant. Zoom out on google maps and check it out. I think it is gonna be cool to watch how this area re-develops, it is fun to be part of the growth rather than just moving someplace that is already done I think.
Is the Pharrell Williams resource center actually a go? I heard about it a few years back but thought it had never made any progress.
As far as I know it is slated for completion next year. I haven't been to the proposed site or anything to say for sure though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goofy328
I checked out the website for AsiaTown; it is interesting, but seems to be a mixed use development that just happens to be called AsiaTown. None of the flair of the Chinatown you see in a lot of major cities.
I think it is a start. You can't just conjure up a Chinatown like Boston, Honolulu, or San Fran out of thin air. We have a large Filipino population already but some more Asian diversity is always a plus. Maybe this can help attract some of it. You are already seeing Thai, Vietnamese, and Indian restaurants popping up all over the place around here and the Asian Association of Hampton Roads is on board with it, so it can't be a bad thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goofy328
There will always be new projects built in this area. The most ambitious, are the most contentious. For example the Pembroke Master Plan is vanglorious, but I doubt I would ever see it in my lifetime.
I'm sure it will evolve over time but I get the sense that Pembroke has been largely successful (retail is lagging a bit but restaurants/bars/clubs are doing well) and will continue to grow. I was down there last night, we drove down Constitution to that new extension. It looks really good, there is a nice bridge leading to a business park / south university area that backs up to 264. Eventually it is supposed to connect with a pedestrian bridge to Trashmore park even. I hadn't been back there in quite a while, it was nice to see some progress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goofy328
This is where most cities the size of Virginia Beach have already been many years ago. It would put Virginia Beach on a competitive platform with cities its same size, either physically or population wise, like say, Cleveland, or Pittsburgh, but is too disruptive and ambitious. Trillions of dollars later ...
Virginia Beach isn't an old city though, in terms of suburbs it is pretty well saturated but the potential to add more dense parts and greater continuity is definitely there. It just takes time. The tax base is there, the vision is there, residents are getting on board (look how full the newtown lot is to ride the rail, that is all vb folks).
Quote:
Originally Posted by goofy328
If Norfolk can ever do something with Waterside it could spark another wave of development. Personally, I think they should demolish the housing projects downtown and reclaim that land.
They are doing something with waterside in the next few years, bank on it. It would be great to get rid of those housing projects but I don't think it is politically viable... will have to wait and see. A lot of people would have to find a new place to live.
I personally love the basketball arena with restaurants and shops along the marina idea. With the rail already going right past there it would be sweet to have harbor park and another sports venue together on the waterfront as long as they keep the actual riverfront area nice and open to the public. I actually think this area could support an NBA team. I would buy season tickets right now. haha.
I don't think the conference center is a good idea just because we already have a brand new one in VB but some of the other proposals (music center, revamp with new restaurants and bars) are nice as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goofy328
Light rail in VB will eventually occur, despite the naysayers. It will be expensive, but it will happen. Did you hear about the plan to connect the bus to the airport in Norfolk? I had no idea people had to walk a mile, or pay for a mile in a cab. That really sucks, hopefully HRT gets the numbers and HRT sticks by this experimental line.
I agree, it will happen eventually. Hopefully we can get federal dollars for it to ease some of the cost burden. In the long run though, since the city already has the land in the right of way, it is probably gonna be cheaper than trying to widen existing roads anyways.
I am not aware of the airport bus situation. I do think that a well supported bus route out there would be pretty convenient.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goofy328
You might also want to check out Aura in Chesapeake. It is a mid-size development project that can be seen from the road looking at Old Navy in Greenbrier. I had no idea you can actually see it on the other side of the parking looking towards the front of those stores. The skyline in Chesapeake is growing, in plain sight unrecognized by anybody!
The Greenbrier area of Chesapeake is definitely coming up, like Erma said, Greenbrier is hardly recognizable from when I was in high school. If it was just a little easier to walk around, Greenbrier would be great, there is so much there. I don't think I am as much as an urbanite as you are, so I am OK with it not getting super dense around here, but I do like that the newer developments are moving in that direction because there are PLENTY of suburbs and strip malls already.
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