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Rest assure that you are not doing anything wrong, though. Some people enjoy it here, that's good for them. If you want something out of life though I suggest you look at moving out of the area, otherwise you're just wasting time.
The horror of my HR existance where I get nothing out of life! LOL. I can always count on your posts for a bunch of useful information topped off with a baseless dig at the area. I'll try to get up tomorrow morning and muddle through my pointless day.
Contrary to what you may think, lots of people actually lead fulfilling lives in the suburbs. Don't take my word for it, there is research to back it up.
Coconut, that is one of the best articulations of what I've been feeling since I've moved here. Thank you. I turned to this forum because after talking with many, many locals about this I've just sorta given up as the response I usually get is "I don't see a problem, aren't cities the places with wierdos, why don't you move to Williamsburg?"
I don't know if I have the energy to become any sort of activist, but this region has serious structural problems.
UH, seems like you guys know each other, I don't want to get into a flame war, I don't have anything against suburbs in general, but the problem is that here there are no suburbs since there is no "urbs" to be a "sub" of. I definitely see my family in a suburb at some point in our life, but this area is unique in that there is absolutely no choice.
I agree Ghent is not all its cracked up to be compared even to much, much smaller cities and is wildly overpriced. That being said if we stay in this area, I see us moving there, as there are no other options (prolly why prices are so high there BTW).
Coconut you may be ultimately right in your assessment of my situation, as we are seriously considering packing up and leaving. But overall I'm just shocked that I would have to do that. Of course I read all the negative things on this forum about HR and NN in general, but coming from elsewhere I thought that it must be overblown. I knew I wasn't moving to San Fran, Austin, or Denver, but I figured EVERY town has some sort of even half-baked version of a walkable community.
I guess not NN or HR. Ghent is awesome, but honestly we've been trying to spend every weekend there and it feels like a place under siege by sprawl and ghetto. The residents there are fighting the good fight, and I'll likely be one of them someday, but I still don't understand why?
I mean there is poor local gov't and then there is HR. Even lackluster cities around the US are seeing an urban revival with wave after wave of gentrification, but here... Ghent? Where is everyone else? What do the clowns here who run these various "cities" think will happen in 10 years? There will be less people? Folks will learn to love traffic? We don't need public playgrounds, we'll all build our own on our oversized plots?
I love my job, but I really fear what then next 20 years will bring to this region if the current state of city planning / development isn't considered a full blown emergency. When I first moved here I read about the Tide expansion to VA Beach and thought it was pretty much the nuttiest thing I've ever heard.
Hmm... thanks so much for responding this has been really enlightening, if not a bit depressing.
UH, seems like you guys know each other, I don't want to get into a flame war, I don't have anything against suburbs in general, but the problem is that here there are no suburbs since there is no "urbs" to be a "sub" of. I definitely see my family in a suburb at some point in our life, but this area is unique in that there is absolutely no choice.
No flame war, dont know him/her, just have seen a lot good posts followed by unneeded negativity and disparaging remarks about the people and place that aren't really constructive (as evidenced by the "if you want something out of life" comment after an otherwise very informative post). But my bad, I apologize, I shouldn't have taken the bait.
If the place isn't for you then it isn't for you. Plenty do like it and plenty don't. I wouldn't waste time sticking around if you know that you want something the area doesn't have and likely won't have any time soon... and I definitely wouldn't advise taking on a bad commute with the hopes of fixing the situation because spending an hour and a half each day in traffic isn't gonna help things.
I mean there is poor local gov't and then there is HR. Even lackluster cities around the US are seeing an urban revival with wave after wave of gentrification, but here... Ghent? Where is everyone else? What do the clowns here who run these various "cities" think will happen in 10 years? There will be less people? Folks will learn to love traffic? We don't need public playgrounds, we'll all build our own on our oversized plots?
I love my job, but I really fear what then next 20 years will bring to this region if the current state of city planning / development isn't considered a full blown emergency. When I first moved here I read about the Tide expansion to VA Beach and thought it was pretty much the nuttiest thing I've ever heard.
I think VB is actually addressing a lot of those concerns and already has great public recreation centers as well as numerous public playgrounds and parks. In fact VB was ranked 7th in the country for public parks by parkscore (the guys that do walkscore) ahead of Seattle and San Diego.
The VB master plan also addresses the need for higher density development along the main corridor through the city as well as transportation to service it.
It is not that I don't think the area has flaws, I just choose to be optimistic based on what I read and who I interact with. I know planners both with the city of VB and HRPDC and I would not consider them "clowns"... they are well aware of the issues and are trying their best to resolve it within the budgets the citizens will allow.
As for NN I really can't say much, I don't care for it aside from right around CNU and the Noland Trail... so I'm not gonna argue with what you are saying... we lived on that side when I first moved back to the area for my job and didn't like it at all. But NN is not HR and I like parts of Norfolk and I like most of VB as well as the direction VB is trying to go with development. I actually think that VB/Norfolk is going to be a great place in 10-20 years for my kids to grow up in or I wouldn't be here. It is not like I don't have a choice.
I am an HR native who no longer lives there--and honestly your initial post hits the nail on the head. Unlike you, I actually like the suburban lifestyle, as opposed to a urban or semi-urban walkable environment in which to live--but I like visiting those areas to go out to eat and walk around.
I think part of the problem is that Hampton Roads is a mostly blue-collar area and there have just not been that many jobs for professionals who might desire the lifestyle you want. The professional jobs are there, just not enough for everyone from the area who decided to or were able to complete college and/or get an advanced degree. Most of my friends and myself left (many of us for NC and the DC metro area)--most of the people I know who would now be in their 30s-50s left. The few friends who have stayed work at call centers, as tradesmen, cleaning houses, or work for relatives....several who work for themselves have been financially successful. But, I believe, the area doesn't really have a "quorum" of a creative/professional class who can move things forward--unlike the Triangle area of NC, for example.
I know Williamsburg is not really a walkable city, but have you thought about looking in that direction as well? People with children in HR are looking for good school districts (or proximity to quality private schools) in Chesapeake or Va Beach as well.
UH, you're awesome and a great credit to the community! I've read about the various proposals in VB. While its a bit far for me to commute, I've tried to learn all I could about the community.
I think there are lots of great thoughts about VA and Norfolk doing forward. I personally would favor a "twin cities" approach, that would leave most of the surrounding area behind. Money talks, and we (in NN) would need to chip in for projects in Norfolk and VA, and I think that is unfortunately the only possible choice.
Your optimism is encouraging. One of my problems with this area is actually the amazing amount of natural resources being unused (so many people, no sports, no large venue centers, no major airport ; great beach strip, surrounded by tourist crap with no density; fantastic climate, few developments catered towards to like bike lanes and outdoor non-mall shopping) that are unused due to seeming lack of political will to spend money on community projects. Again, respect for the proposals coming out of VB, just not sure if anything actually meaningful will come to fruition? What do the plans call for the VA "downtown"? Big box store, poor pedestrian access? How will Norfolk fit in?
A part of my particular issue is Ive grown up (but not lived in a while) in "rust belt" type areas, and the community trying to have their cities keep up with Denvers, Bostons, etc. is something oh a hobby at this point and being here I would love to try to help, even if its just a little (support local retail, food, purchase locally made items, etc.). In NN, this is almost impossible.
As far as the "clowns"... yeah I agree I haven't really met anyone yet or have gotten that engaged to make singular accusations. But I do stand behind my "clowns" in the spirit of the post, in that they are clowns in working together. Its a funny problem, to be in one of the most republican areas of the country and have way too much government.
Rust belt sities (eg. Detroit) downsize the positions, so you pretty much have less representation from the outlying "suburb" areas. I really feel its politically best to just pick a downtown and roll-in everything under one gov't structure.
Its the missing of opportunity that really chaps my ass, considering how much gov't money flows into this region we can easily have a very dynamic and desirable city. It would just take political will I'm just not seeing here.
Overall based on the comments, I'm optimistic people are sharing their thoughts and have at least attempted to fix some of these issues. UH, as far as the some like it some dont, some stay some leave, I can dig that (and still might), but the reason Im posting so much here is I really WANT to stay and don't want to be another person that contributes to the area by moving away.
The horror of my HR existance where I get nothing out of life! LOL. I can always count on your posts for a bunch of useful information topped off with a baseless dig at the area. I'll try to get up tomorrow morning and muddle through my pointless day.
Another personal attack! Add a notch to your belt!
Quote:
Originally Posted by UHgrad
No flame war, dont know him/her, just have seen a lot good posts followed by unneeded negativity and disparaging remarks about the people and place that aren't really constructive (as evidenced by the "if you want something out of life" comment after an otherwise very informative post).
I thought it was just a bunch of useless information? Again, talking out of both sides of your mouth... didn't we just go through this?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geork
Coconut, that is one of the best articulations of what I've been feeling since I've moved here. Thank you. I turned to this forum because after talking with many, many locals about this I've just sorta given up as the response I usually get is "I don't see a problem, aren't cities the places with wierdos, why don't you move to Williamsburg?"
I don't know if I have the energy to become any sort of activist, but this region has serious structural problems.
I agree Ghent is not all its cracked up to be compared even to much, much smaller cities and is wildly overpriced. That being said if we stay in this area, I see us moving there, as there are no other options (prolly why prices are so high there BTW).
Coconut you may be ultimately right in your assessment of my situation, as we are seriously considering packing up and leaving. But overall I'm just shocked that I would have to do that. Of course I read all the negative things on this forum about HR and NN in general, but coming from elsewhere I thought that it must be overblown. I knew I wasn't moving to San Fran, Austin, or Denver, but I figured EVERY town has some sort of even half-baked version of a walkable community.
I guess not NN or HR. Ghent is awesome, but honestly we've been trying to spend every weekend there and it feels like a place under siege by sprawl and ghetto. The residents there are fighting the good fight, and I'll likely be one of them someday, but I still don't understand why?
I mean there is poor local gov't and then there is HR. Even lackluster cities around the US are seeing an urban revival with wave after wave of gentrification, but here... Ghent? Where is everyone else? What do the clowns here who run these various "cities" think will happen in 10 years? There will be less people? Folks will learn to love traffic? We don't need public playgrounds, we'll all build our own on our oversized plots?
I love my job, but I really fear what then next 20 years will bring to this region if the current state of city planning / development isn't considered a full blown emergency. When I first moved here I read about the Tide expansion to VA Beach and thought it was pretty much the nuttiest thing I've ever heard.
Hmm... thanks so much for responding this has been really enlightening, if not a bit depressing.
Thanks
It is blind ignorance, but if you just call it like it is you get attacked (note above!) People in this area tend to see any sort of difference in opinion as a personal attack on them and thus retaliate.
After years of interacting with like minded people and pushing for change, to see that nothing really came out of it was just so frustrating. It's honestly like talking to brick walls. There's zero transparency in government (just look at Suffolk's city manager who just got her raise after ANOTHER closed door meeting at city hall,) nobody works together and residents just seem to say "Oh well." It's nuts!
You are right in that they are clowns. Clowns who think they actually will do something to this place. Sure, there will be small victories here and there but for the most part everything will remain status quo and that is okay with everyone. There's a very small group actually running HR and that's that. It's a miracle VA Beach got rid of Meyera Oberndorf a few years ago, she was a tried and true patsy. Sessoms is becoming just as bad.
I've actually found Ghent to be reasonably priced, but probably not if you're looking to buy a home or even rent and need multiple bedrooms. The inventory on the market is old but at least most of it is close to Colley. Even still that gets incredibly old after a while. Being confined to a two block stretch is like a hamster in a cage. Sure they might have a few tunnels and a wheel but they can only go through the tunnels and run on the wheel for so long before they try to chew the cage apart and bust out.
It looks like you're not in favor of the Tide going to VA Beach (unless you just mistyped) and I have to say that solid transportation is one of the keystones to a successful area.
Another crazy example of inept leadership and a population that just doesn't care: a brand new tube added to the Midtown Tunnel with no rail link! There is talk of a park and ride again but this has been discussed before and most likely will be a few years away (amazing- they have the lot and are ready to go but the issue holding it up is no bus! No city is willing to buy one or split the costs with anyone else. Cities that can change their routes (non-grant funded routes) refuse to do so because it would 'impact their residents.') All grandstanding and nonsense.
If you dig a little you'll see the many many many many issues that plague Hampton Roads. I almost wish I could go back to being ignorant and blissful like so many in this area are. At one point I thought I could really make an impact on the area, really join the march to town hall and help be part of the change that would make life in Hampton Roads super special; make HR the envy of the east coast instead of the joke it is today. Unfortunately once you uncover the closets of skeletons you'll never be able to see what you used to.
I thought it was just a bunch of useless information? Again, talking out of both sides of your mouth... didn't we just go through this?!
Where did I say useless? I said useful, you quoted it so I'm not sure what to tell you. Perhaps it is time to read less angrily and look at the words on the page?? There was no personal attack, you provide a lot of USEFUL (as quoted by you) information then tend to throw in a jab at the end which disparages the residents as less intelligent, complacent, or apathetic. That is my consistent beef with your posts, not the general quality of the content. In other words your vitriol packages it in a way that puts people who actually care about this community on the defensive. Condescension is not a constructive way to convince someone that your way of thinking is the better one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coconut1
I almost wish I could go back to being ignorant and blissful like so many in this area are.
Case in point... another good post followed by calling "so many in this area" ignorant and blissful. No need for the bullying (making yourself feel better by belittling others), it was a great post up until this point until you martyred yourself and called residents ignorant.
Coconut, ha ha, yeah I guess I wasn't very clear. To complete my thought, reading about people having a discussion about expanding the Tide was nuts, as in I can't imagine a person who wouldn't want it expanded.
At this point, it is likely we will settle down here. The type of work I do favors staying in one place for a long time, which is why I'm feeling so much ambivalence. I would ideally like a place that my kids would want to stay in and live near me, not flee the first second they could. Some place with a future. The problem around here is folks are busy grumbling about the "communists and liberals in northern VA" and fighting amongst all these various "7 cities" and not realizing that they are competing for manpower / brainpower / cultural institutions with OTHER cities. Other cities are busy blowing up their budgets so they can build out light rail, and when I moved here I heard a retread of that old, sick, and lame "black people gunna come close to my expensive house if there is public transport" argument that I though pretty much was put on the shelf in the '80s.
As far as putting rail on the tunnels. Boy, don't get me started. I'll get banned from this forum. Not building out rail through the tunnels is such a big lack of foresight. I don't know any city planners here, and I'm sure they are not ignorant folks, but it seems the utter car dependence of this region is not considered a problem. If you look around to see how other similarly sized cities (again, this area taken together is actually HUGE population wise) have dealt with low-density housing and growth, you'll see that we are heading down a pathway of pain. 2+ hr traffic is an economic weight hanging around your communities neck.
To this day it shocks me how hard it is to get around NN, at almost any time of the day, and how everyone on the peninsula thinks its just "normal". Its not "normal" its the result of endless cul-de-sacs, dead-end streets, strip malls, and no thought to the overall community (going back to my original post, seriously feels like an upscale trailer park in that respect).
As far as Ghent being priced reasonably, I disagree. I think it is ultimately a rather big problem that we don't see any gentrification in Norfolk. VA Beach from my casual and ignorant observations seems simply too low-density to fix and develop into anything useful for the time being. The entry point into the only safe / urbanish area shouldn't be 400-500K for a detached house (which is what west ghent / ghent looks like), but more around 250-300K so younger couples can move in.
Perhaps this will begin to resolve in coming years. Perhaps not.
We'll like I said, not sure if I have the energy to become any sort of "activist" but I will sure talk to death to anyone I meet about these issues! I was raised in a very poor and dying "rust belt" city. Like everyone else there with a degree I moved away!
That city has been recently (past 15 yrs) doing very well and is seeing a bit of a revival. I credit a large part of that revival on local activists and I think the main thing they did is decoupled criticizing their community from hating it. I've gotten several "if you don't like it, leave" comments around the office. That has led me to carry on this conversation on-line, but that is the scariest mindset. What led to my former cities revival was folks in the community dropping the chip on their shoulder and asking "why is it that so many young people move away?" Then you can become a little self deprecating, and THEN eventually you can try to solve some problems.
From my very rudimentary examination, it seems like NN (and the small areas of HR I've explored) are stuck firmly in the "we don't have any issues," "don't like it, leave," "there is all this traffic because of the yankees like you who moved here," mindset that should have been kicked to the curb in the 80s.
Great conversation, you guys have given me alot to think about.
UH, you're awesome and a great credit to the community! I've read about the various proposals in VB. While its a bit far for me to commute, I've tried to learn all I could about the community.
Overall based on the comments, I'm optimistic people are sharing their thoughts and have at least attempted to fix some of these issues. UH, as far as the some like it some dont, some stay some leave, I can dig that (and still might), but the reason Im posting so much here is I really WANT to stay and don't want to be another person that contributes to the area by moving away.
Hmm... so much to think about.
PS I've never seen some many churches per block!
I appreciate the compliment! There are tons of smart and interesting people from all over the country here, you would be surprised, we are just not showy people in general so it is a little harder to see it sometimes.
I hope you do find a way to stay and I hope you are can be optimistic about the future here. I also hope that the commute doesn't beat you into submission if you decide to move to Ghent or somewhere on the southside. If you do decide to leave I wish you the best, there is nothing wrong with going somewhere that suits your tastes more now rather than hoping someplace becomes something down the road. For me, the advantage of the latter is that you get to help build it rather than being along for the ride.
Since you spend a lot of time in Ghent you are probably familiar with their publication already, but just in case you aren't you may want to check in here for things going on and some interesting debate. They are a little "left" for me on a lot of things but I enjoy reading it none the less.
I think my view of VB/Norfolk is pretty realistic, I think it is a good area that can certainly be better. I think that VB, while certainly lacking character and sprawling, is a great community with good schools, parks, recreation centers, and access to the ocean/bay/rivers/estuaries which are tremendous amenities and a lot of wonderful people. VB town center is a bit "plastic" right now full of mostly chain restaurants and shops but they are always expanding and trying to attract new business. In fact, phase 5 is starting now with the construction of a new tower that will house Hampton Universities VB campus as well Clark Nexsen (Architecture and Engineering firm).
I like Sessoms, he is looking for investments that will pay off in the future for the city in the long term. He is not a "we can't afford it" so we should do nothing mayor, he is more of a "lets invest in things only if we think they will be good investments" and I think that comes from his background with the banks. Some say he is in the pocket of developers but I think that his administration is trying to move the city forward in a way that will benefit us all in the long run.
And personally, although I am not Christian, I don't mind all of the churches at all. Once you get past the very vocal minority of fanatics, most church folks that I know do more in their community than any of my more progressive friends whether it be volunteering at shelters, donating money/food, or just taking the time to help out their neighbors. That is just the honest truth from my experiences around VB. I don't think anyone has a good grasp of why we are here, what our purpose is, why we should be moral etc... when they really stop to think about it. So if some people find comfort in God I am not going to try and rip them apart for it, I just debate them on the points where I think they are abandoning their belief system in favor of ideology.
PS In regards to the "lack of an urban core" I really think it makes a lot of sense when you look at the major employers. DOD (bases), tourism (oceanfront, williamsburg), two shipyards (industrial on water), port (industrial on water), various hospitals (spread out to service population), NASA Langley (off on its own near Poquoson)... for the most part they are not centralized and not conducive to a downtown environment. Sure, you could move BoA, Amerigroup, GEICO, HSBC, and some of the more data driven govt. contractors to a central location but no city wants to give up those jobs so they will fight to keep them.
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