Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Hawaii owns all mineral rights, which includes heat/steam and demands a royalty, even though the geothermal company returns all of the used steam (as water) back to the ground. This amounts to a couple million $ per year.
Hawaii taxes the GROSS $ of sales on the geothermal company - not just the profits. This amounts to a few million $ per year.
The geothermal company also has to pay a percentage of sales into another fund, supposedly to pay for homeowner relocation due to "health issues". Two homeowners have been moved. One moved back to the mainland and one moved a few blocks away, in the same subdivision. I believe this fund now holds over $2 million and is just sitting there.
There are a few Hawaiians who believe that yes, it is "stealing" from Pele.
There are local Hawaiian groups who claim that they deserve money from the geothermal company in order for it to operate. They have their hand out.
Hawaii has a goofy utility law that essentially states that the cost of any energy produced must be paid for at the "offset" rate of what oil generated electricity is. the geothermal company has stated that their cost is around eleven to fourteen cents per KWH and they sell it to the local electric company for around twenty two cents per KWH. The electric company gets to maintain the high selling price without generating electricity themselves or building a new plant, hence avoiding any risk to themselves and the consumer benefits are zero.
I've lived for 12 years about 2.5 miles from GEO, got no complaints. The "suffering resident" that relocated in the same subdivision (Leilani Estates) didn't even move 1 block away, he lives across the street, in sight of his old house! GEO has had a good track record over 20 years now.
Location: Big Island of Hawaii & HOT BuOYS Sailing Vessel
5,277 posts, read 2,801,922 times
Reputation: 1932
Aloha
Special thanks..mdand3boys..
I was under impression that the current geothermal plant was helping to keep costs down...and had no idea we are simply paying the same amount to the firm as if we were burning oil anyway. Sounds to me like Puna Geothermal Venture has an incentive to prevent Helco from building their own geothermal plant.
It looks like if Helco built their own plant and reduced their costs to generate power...this in turn would mean lower revenue to PGV since the avoided costs for Helco would be lower?
I think what rubs me the wrong way about this situation is we just sit on all the geothermal energy we could possibly use .... only to burn oil ...and send troops to defend/get more oil so we have the right to pay high rates.
One would think energy independence would be a priority. I'm just wondering aloud if we might utilize the regulations and guidelines of the Rural Electric Cooperatives to create and fund an organization that helped lower bills in Hawaii.
I'm always looking for ways to reduce the costs to live in Hawaii.
...I was under impression that the current geothermal plant was helping to keep costs down...and had no idea we are simply paying the same amount to the firm as if we were burning oil anyway. Sounds to me like Puna Geothermal Venture has an incentive to prevent Helco from building their own geothermal plant.
It looks like if Helco built their own plant and reduced their costs to generate power...this in turn would mean lower revenue to PGV since the avoided costs for Helco would be lower? ...
HELCO has the larger incentive in this debacle.
HELCO doesn't have to take on the risk or expense of building and operating a new plant and because of the "avoided cost" legislation, is able to maintain their revenue at a specific level, thus justifying profit percentages based upon the higher revenue stream amount. If HELCO dropped electric prices because costs were lower, the PUC (Public Utilities Commission) would drop their overall amount of allowed profit based upon a lower revenue amount. They would make the same percentage of profit, just less of it.
Three things need to happen...
The state must drop the "avoided cost" regulations
Allow the sale of energy to individuals and companies by third party energy companies as some other states do
Stop putting taxes upon taxes...
Aloha
Special thanks..mdand3boys..
I was under impression that the current geothermal plant was helping to keep costs down...and had no idea we are simply paying the same amount to the firm as if we were burning oil anyway. Sounds to me like Puna Geothermal Venture has an incentive to prevent Helco from building their own geothermal plant.
It looks like if Helco built their own plant and reduced their costs to generate power...this in turn would mean lower revenue to PGV since the avoided costs for Helco would be lower?
I think what rubs me the wrong way about this situation is we just sit on all the geothermal energy we could possibly use .... only to burn oil ...and send troops to defend/get more oil so we have the right to pay high rates.
One would think energy independence would be a priority. I'm just wondering aloud if we might utilize the regulations and guidelines of the Rural Electric Cooperatives to create and fund an organization that helped lower bills in Hawaii.
I'm always looking for ways to reduce the costs to live in Hawaii.
Note: I'm currently not a stock holder in Helco.
Just one small example of the backwardness of Hawiian politics that will ever hold it back - way back. Take Kona - big time, world class marlin fishing, and the people who operate charters there can't make a decent living because there are no recreational slips available, forcing everyone who just wants a boat for their own use to become a "commercial"" operation and generate $15,000 a year in business. The existing demand is spread so thin by the backwardness that nobody does very well.
Somebody was going to expand the current harbor but the "backwardness factor" was so strong, they gave up. Lack of recreational slips forces everyone into "commercial" status.
Just expand the harbor you morons.
Hawaii time is a killer. Stonewalling progress is even worse.
Just one small example of the backwardness of Hawiian politics that will ever hold it back - way back. Take Kona - big time, world class marlin fishing, and the people who operate charters there can't make a decent living because there are no recreational slips available, forcing everyone who just wants a boat for their own use to become a "commercial"" operation and generate $15,000 a year in business. The existing demand is spread so thin by the backwardness that nobody does very well.
Somebody was going to expand the current harbor but the "backwardness factor" was so strong, they gave up. Lack of recreational slips forces everyone into "commercial" status.
Just expand the harbor you morons.
Hawaii time is a killer. Stonewalling progress is even worse.
I know this is off topic of the subect but i going to add this to your statement about the local government
When i first came on this forum i had a idea for my retirement to work at a couple days a week and make some extra money at the same time ..
When i pitched the idea to people who i knew had house in Hawaii they go anywhere but there and when asked why they said the same statement as you laid out about the whole thing with dealing with the leadership of the locals on some of the island's there
As one or two people who had money and could afford the idea i was trying to back on the mainland ..Is how the local governement can make project there go far beyond normal time of dealing with something simple and easy turns into long and draw out and cost more money in the end than it worth to build there ..
Two of the people where born and raised in Hawaii and they go no anywhere but there and i help with the funding to set up the idea that you have ..
Alot of the people i talked to said it was just not worth dealing with them in the end because of there head in the sand approch to things ..One of the people i apporched said where i bult my house here in the state's in less than 3 months start to finish ..I'm still working on my place in Hawaii and that has gone on now for allmost a year now with building a home there in the island's ..
Location: Big Island of Hawaii & HOT BuOYS Sailing Vessel
5,277 posts, read 2,801,922 times
Reputation: 1932
I'm very impressed with the quality of the opinions on this site and the background knowledge others have in the complexity of Hawaii.
I have come to the conclusion that there is a strong current in Hawaii opposed to anything that would either lower the cost of living, make living conditions better, or promote higher paying jobs.
So often I hear an argument along these lines to justify keeping it that way:
1. Hawaii can't fit a tiny fraction of the people that dream of someday moving to Hawaii.
2. Current Hawaii residents already think it is too crowded.
3. Decreasing living costs, and increasing the standard of living with higher paying jobs only encourages people to move to Hawaii.
When you take this to the extreme case, you end up with a situation where:
1. Only the very wealthy that can afford to overcome the hurdle to move to Hawaii can come.
2. Limited growth means limited housing and high housing costs.
3. Limited growth means low paying jobs and young people leaving the State for the mainland to find a decent job.
4. A wealthy class, and a servant class.
I'm sure many of you agree that is exactly like what Hawaii already is like in many parts. I also concede the point that there are enough crowded places in the world for those that want that life. I like smaller towns with less crowding.
So I guess the question becomes, how do you have your cake and eat it too?
I guess the more the politically incorrect question is...
How do we lower the cost of living, increase the number of high paying jobs, without resulting in overcrowding?
Could there be such a thing as a tax on becoming a new citizen of the State of Hawaii?
Okay allow me to backup. There already is a tax on becoming a resident of Hawaii. That tax is a self-destructive tax that imposes a high cost of living, low paid jobs, low quality education, and poor infrastructure, upon all residents of Hawaii.
Now imagine for a moment how this might work. Again I'm just thinking aloud here.
If you are John Smith, living in Montana and decide you want to move to Hawaii you would have to pay a one time State Tax of $_0,000. Plus another $_5,000 for your spouse, $__,000 per child under the age of 10, and $_5,000 per child under the age of 18, and $_0,000 per child under the age of 25.
I'm just tossing figures in the air, and there would have to be discounts available for former residents to return and for people of native Hawaiian blood to return. Of course the discount for anyone with 100% native blood would be 100%.
Enforcement would have to be worked out and some measures would be more easy than others. For example: State tax refunds, acceptance into school system, and perhaps there could be a large state sales tax refundable only to legal state residents.
To ensure money was well spent,
50% of the tax could only go to the following areas according to these priorities.
1. Reducing Hawaii's cost of electricity from highest in the Country to LOWEST.
2. Reducing the cost of movement of goods and people to and from Islands and mainland. i.e. Port improvement projects.
3. Sewers sanitation and watershed improvement projects.
4. Subsidy for any added cost to electric cars and trucks.
25% would be directed towards the education system to lower class size and increase teacher quality. (The increase in teacher quality would be tied to bonus to schools/teachers that have classes that score high or, at least higher than the year before, on National test standards. For example teachers with 5th graders would still get a bonus even if class was still well below national averages provided the class they taught scored higher than the one the year before.)
15% Towards capital improvement projects at the University and community college level.
15% Towards subsidy of State residents to attend State sponsored University and community colleges.
The multiplication factor of reducing electric cost to manufacturers would help spur job growth alone. I'm not a believer in using State funds to draw or subsidize firms to transfer.
To discourage the wasting of electricity there would have to be a base electric rate for the first X kilowatts adequate enough to provide for a household that doesn't have AC. The next X kilowatts would be then at a higher rates. The same would hold true for the retail stores. Many seem to like to have their doors wide open to attract customers and dry and cool the sidewalks.
By implementation of tax to come to Hawaii like this:
1. Everyone in Hawaii would have a higher standard of living.
2. Jobs would grow owing to lower cost of living and less expensive electric power.
3. Education would improve and more high tech jobs would follow.
4. Growth is limited by the tax.
5. Current residents receive benefit and the former residents are encourage to return.
Okay I've solved enough or the problems for today and got to get working on the boat. See you.
No it not and to go green is one of the best thing a person could do for our planet ..but the problem as some of the people has pointed out was the fact of the local goverment takes it sweet time on everything that they do ..
That way i think it time to clean out the house and start new with people who understand that we as a island we have to become a totaly independent on own and we should be leaning towards the future about produceing our own enegry to stop the outside the state dependent on gas or oil to produce your own electric power for your home and business ..
the biggest problem with green thinking or outside the box thinking is that the people who are thinking about the future are not the one are running the show and it shows in how they run things in the local government's on the island there .. ..
it has taken me a year of dealing with the state over building my house for the basic permit's for the place because it not bult in a normal sense and when i showed that it will use less enegry to run and show it the perfect house set up a place like home ..
Common sense is not a normal thing in the goverment when it comes to forward thinking and how we can become less dependent ..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
