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Old 11-27-2013, 05:00 AM
 
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I would argue it began in 1939 with Action T4 when they started killing the mentally ill, but there was precursors to it as soon as Hitler was elected in 1933.

People often forget that people with mental disabilities were actually the first people the Nazis killed; the ones they regarded the lowest.
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Old 11-27-2013, 05:17 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Do you know what it is called the Holocaust?
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Old 11-27-2013, 06:01 AM
 
Location: The Triad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belmont22 View Post
there was precursors to it as soon as Hitler was elected in 1933.
People often forget that people with mental disabilities...
Topic lines that ask a question...
followed by posts that purport to answer that question are really annoying.

When those put up answers are really about pushing some other point...
people begin to think about ignore features and the TOS.
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Old 11-27-2013, 11:24 PM
 
Location: SoCal
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On a large scale and for Jews? Probably in mid-1941.
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Old 11-28-2013, 12:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belmont22 View Post
I would argue it began in 1939 with Action T4 when they started killing the mentally ill, but there was precursors to it as soon as Hitler was elected in 1933.
The Holocaust or more properly the Hebrew term Shoah specifically refers to the mass murder and genocide of the Jews of Europe, it is formerly not a term that includes the breath of Nazi crimes against humanity. So if we can agree to the terminology, the beginning of the Holocaust is a matter of debate. Some consider the rise of Hitler to power in 1933 as the beginning, others would date the onset as coming on the 9th of November 1938 with Kristalnacht - Night of Broken Glass when Herschel Grynszpan ironically shot and killed the anti-Nazi career diplomat Ernst von Rath stationed in Paris. I believe that the date would be as late as 1941 when Reinhard Heydrich first established the SS murder squads in occupied Poland. But it could be argued that in began in ernest when on January 20th, 1942 Heydrich chaired the Wannsee Conference met to devise and implement the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question." So I suppose there a great deal of discrepancy in the various time lines to form a proper historical debate... if we agree on what defines the meaning of Holocaust.
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Old 11-28-2013, 01:24 PM
 
Location: SoCal
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Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
But it could be argued that in began in ernest when on January 20th, 1942 Heydrich chaired the Wannsee Conference met to devise and implement the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question." So I suppose there a great deal of discrepancy in the various time lines to form a proper historical debate... if we agree on what defines the meaning of Holocaust.
I think that the Nazis and their allies and supporters already killed 1+ million Jews before the Wannsee Conference.
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Old 11-28-2013, 01:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Futurist110 View Post
I think that the Nazis and their allies and supporters already killed 1+ million Jews before the Wannsee Conference.
Ehhhh.... I really don't know and outside of fun of debating historical trivia I'm fully capable of accepting any date folks want to come up with.

SOooo...

A million before 1942 is a whole lot of folks and that being the case we would have to kick back my suggested date (1942) to the invasion of Poland and the USSR in 1941. I'd have a hard time (for the purpose of this debate) buying into any earlier date.
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Old 11-28-2013, 04:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Futurist110 View Post
I think that the Nazis and their allies and supporters already killed 1+ million Jews before the Wannsee Conference.
I think it began with Hitler coming into power.
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Old 11-28-2013, 06:02 PM
 
Location: SoCal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jobseeker2013 View Post
I think it began with Hitler coming into power.
On a small scale, and if one includes non-Jews, then probably Yes. However, I think that my point about the Holocaust for Jews only beginning on a large scale in 1941 still stands.

For instance, take a look at this data here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Jewish

Jewish Holocaust death toll:

1933-1940: Less than 100,000
1941: 1,100,000
1942: 2,700,000
1943: 500,000
1944: 600,000
1945: 100,000
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Old 11-28-2013, 06:10 PM
 
Location: SoCal
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As a side note, it appears based on this data and based on some other facts that the Holocaust would have probably been much smaller had Hitler failed to conquer France during World War II (either in 1940 or beyond that point in time). Unfortunately, history turned out the way that it did, and as a result, much more Jews (including many of my relatives) got killed by Nazi maniacs and by their supporters.
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