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Old 08-04-2015, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Southeast Michigan
2,851 posts, read 2,300,927 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord View Post
Plus the "Fuhrer" was not really close to the German navy. He preferred the army and then next the air force. He felt like he needed to heed the naval commanders' advise more than others and treaded more cautiously in naval warfare. For Sealion the navy would have to be the centerpiece and that was a major obstacle for him.
The whole problem with Sealion was the huge discrepancy in forces.

The Germans had a relatively strong Kriegsmarine but not nearly as large and powerful as the Royal Navy.

They also had absolutely no way to transport tens of thousands of troops and tanks and supplies across the Channel. They were actually seriously planning on using river barges for that (suicidal).

Hence the crazy idea of bombing RAF into submission, using paratroops to secure a beachead with an airstrip, and then rush like mad to unload the main invasion force from the said river barges before RN blows it to smithereens. And rely on Luftwaffe to keep RN busy. Somehow all of this seems really nuts.

So let's say they decide to build up Kriegsmarine plus get enough sea worthy transport ships for a good sized invasion.

That is a major, major, major undertaking. Fleet was the most expensive thing a country could spend money on at that time. So it's unlikely they'd have the resources to do that and expand the Luftwaffe or wage a war in Russia.

And this would give Britain a breather, that they could use to beef up their own RN - either by building more ships, or by buying them from the US. In the end RN is still far bigger and Germany is still behind plus there's more ships but still little oil for them. Oil was the problem they were unable to solve for entire duration of the war.

I just don't see a successful seaborne invasion of Britain in that decade.
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Old 08-05-2015, 03:26 AM
 
Location: London
4,709 posts, read 5,062,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
Is there an echo in here? I keep hearing the same tired phrases over and over and over and over again...
If you hear them often enough they may sink in.

The Germans had the long term Mesopotamia plan to reach the Gulf and Indian Ocean. Indeed German tank production was geared for this plan explaining the high numbers of German tanks produced.

Last edited by John-UK; 08-05-2015 at 03:39 AM..
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Old 08-05-2015, 03:32 AM
 
Location: London
4,709 posts, read 5,062,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
The whole problem with Sealion was the huge discrepancy in forces.

The Germans had a relatively strong Kriegsmarine
They hardly had a surface fleet as most was destroyed in the Norwegian campaign.

Britain didn't need a breather they were running riot in East and North Africa in late 1940. They destroyed the German and French navies and seriously disabled the Italian in 1940. Oh, and beat the Luftwaffe twice.
Quote:
I just don't see a successful seaborne invasion of Britain in that decade.
I don't see one in any decade.
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Old 08-06-2015, 04:37 PM
 
1,600 posts, read 1,888,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
They hardly had a surface fleet as most was destroyed in the Norwegian campaign.

Britain didn't need a breather they were running riot in East and North Africa in late 1940. They destroyed the German and French navies and seriously disabled the Italian in 1940. Oh, and beat the Luftwaffe twice.

I don't see one in any decade.
The British didn't disable any Italian fleet in 1940 nor a German one for what it counts.
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Old 08-07-2015, 07:49 AM
 
Location: London
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xander.XVII View Post
The British didn't disable any Italian fleet in 1940 nor a German one for what it counts.
You need to learn more about the naval side of the Norwegian campaign. HMS Warspite destroyed 9 German warships in Narvik Fjord alone. The Italian navy took a serious dent by the RN. The RN was freely sailing off the Italian coast. I repeat, the British were running riot in later 1940. They were not quivering waiting for the Americans to come.
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Old 08-07-2015, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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The Italians continued their convoys to North Africa with no interruption post-Taranto.[Force K was not established in Malta until late 1941] They were not offensively aggressive[While the modern Littorio was being repaired and the VV worked up] against the RN but ship movements continued and were escorted.

Germans very active using their heavy ships in the North Atlantic until May 1941.[less so after] The two light cruisers and ten destroyers lost in Norway would not have been useful for the North Atlantic raiding role. The big Germans Zs were kept either in northern Norway or Brest. T-boats were mostly in the Channel convoy work. The light cruisers were primarily for the Baltic or southern Norwegian waters.

Of the ships lost in Norway, the cruiser Blucher certainly would have been useful in the North Atlantic. At least until design shortcomings in actual service indicated it was not best used as a raider and so back to Norway or the Baltic it would go as did the other two brother-ships.

Last edited by Felix C; 08-07-2015 at 08:38 AM..
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Old 08-07-2015, 08:27 AM
 
1,600 posts, read 1,888,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
You need to learn more about the naval side of the Norwegian campaign. HMS Warspite destroyed 9 German warships in Narvik Fjord alone. The Italian navy took a serious dent by the RN. The RN was freely sailing off the Italian coast. I repeat, the British were running riot in later 1940. They were not quivering waiting for the Americans to come.
Felix C widely answered for me.
I'll add that only 1 old battleship (WWI-designed and refitted in 1933) was disabled permanently because there were other more important repairing to do and that the Royal Navy NEVER interrupted the convoy traffic to North Africa, NEVER.
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Old 08-07-2015, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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As for the OP's question...France experienced what Napoleon did to the Austrians post Ulm, Austerlitz and the Germans post Jena and Auerstadt and what Generals have been wanting to do since.. instill political shock so the military and governments are unable to organize a defense and sue for peace. I think this is reason why countries believed in the concept of the decisive battle before the onset of total war.
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Old 08-08-2015, 04:55 PM
 
Location: London
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix C View Post
The Italians continued their convoys to North Africa with no interruption post-Taranto.[Force K was not established in Malta until late 1941]
No. April 1941:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle..._Tarigo_Convoy
Towards the end only 25% was getting through of Italian convoys.

German were not very active using their heavy ships in the North Atlantic. The Bismarck was sunk ion its maiden voyage and the rest would run from the RN. You need to look at the size of the RN to the German navy - do some reading. The German really didn't have a surface fleet.

The Germans had two or three oldish heavy cruisers after Norway. I suppose they were to blast their way through the Home Fleet or the Channel defences. Yes. At that point in the war, Bismarck was not yet available, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were under repair from the Norway operation, two of six heavy cruisers sunk, two of six light cruisers sunk, and only five of those could be considered modern warships, a large number of their destroyers were sunk at Narvik. The repair status on the rest of the ships wasn't real good. The German navy whittled to almost nothing.

The Germans never had enough oil for what was left of their surface navy. It silently retired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xander.XVII View Post
Felix C widely answered for me.
He did but it was the wrong answer.
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Old 08-08-2015, 06:20 PM
 
2,806 posts, read 3,177,385 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckskins View Post
The French fought valiantly in both world wars. In plain English the French and British were outfought by superior troops. German combat arms at that time was without doubt the best the world had seen. To answer your question regards the so called French cowardice. The French fought the rear guard that allowed the British to run. Therein lays the kernel for slander that the Brits have since branded the French as cowards. The bulk of the British B.E.F was evacuated from Dunkirk. The Germans kicked their Brit butts into the English Channel, yet the Brit spin has it celebrated as some sort of victory. The British left their weapons and wounded on the beach. Make no mistake about it, the French can fight, despite British spin in their boot in the backside from the Germans. BTW the French Resistance made German lives a living hell during their occupation and assisting the allies during the fight to free France.
Thanks for mentioning this. Unless they were abandoned by their leadership, French troops fought very valiant in WW2. Look at how they performed in their hedgehog defenses when the scale of military might was much in German favor due to earlier losses. The French military leadership is to blame solely. They did not learn anything from the Polish campaign, did not prepare their troops how to deal with air and tank attacks and totally blundered with intelligence.
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