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Hello - I'm looking for some opinions on sizing my next water softener. I've done a decent amount of reading online, but it seems like my searches always lead me to one particular forum. And within that forum, there seems to be a surprising amount of harmony around recommendations across all the threads. That either means there are clear cut winners (which makes the buying process easy) or it's an echo chamber. I thought I'd throw the topic out here and see if I get similar or different opinions.
My water has 22 grains of hardness, no iron. I have a 1 inch main line into the house, which continues up to the hot/cold split. 4 people in the house.
At this point, I think I need a system with between 1.5 and 2 cubic feet of resin. That would be targeting between 6-8 lbs of salt used per cubic foot per regeneration. I'm on a septic, so want to be as salt efficient as possible. I'd also strongly prefer a demand driven softener, vs timed.
From what I can tell, when buying a softener you want to focus on the control valve and the cubic feet of resin. Everything else about a softener is pretty much generic.
All this has lead me to strongly consider a system using a Fleck 5810SXT control valve, paired with 2 cubic feet of resin. I'm curious if anyone has any other thoughts or recommendations?
I think you are on the right path. Any shop that sells softeners, will be glad to check your work for free.
We have an old Sears Kenmore, it has an adjustable brine metering intake, you can set the exact minimum amount of brine to use, to minimize salt use. It could be set up to do a regeneration anything from daily, to once every 6 days (why 6 and not 7, 7 days per week would make more sense, but it was in the house when I bought it.
Newer models do have essentially a "water meter" in the control system, the old Sears I just run manually myself, as the valves got sticky, and they would not close reliably, although, now that I have been running it manually with a screwdriver for a couple of years, the valves seem to have freed up. Go figure.
You might want to look at a Kinetico. They cost more, in part because they have 2 resin beds, one regenerates while the other is on line, they have always been demand driven rather than a timer.
I've used Fleck valves for over 40 years, and I still prefer their tried-and-true 5600 Econominder with the analog control (a simple motor to control the regeneration process). It's metered, and is VERY reliable and easy to repair in the field with basic tools. My supplier would love for me to use the 5810 - ain't gonna happen. The 5600 is just too reliable a workhorse.
At 22 gpg, you'd have about 800 gallons capacity from a one cubic foot unit. The national average usage is 50 gallons per person per day. Ideally, you'll run at least 3 days between regenerations. That means you could do up to a family of 4 comfortably (I always try to have a little "fudge"). A 1.5 or 2 cubic foot unit isn't going to "hurt" you, other than a bit more initial cost, since they're regenerated based on usage.
PLEASE do yourself a favor - find a local independent dealer to buy from. The online warehouse places sell 'em cheap....but aren't going to be there when you have a problem, and if something is damaged in shipping, it's going to be on YOU to figure it out and fix it. I get too many calls from folks with them, and I'm not about to get in the middle of trying to fix something like that, because the one time I did, they tried to blame ME for the problems.
That's good advice on the dealer. We do have two widely used shops here that build their own softeners. One uses the Fleck valves, the other uses a Clack CS-1. I don't see CS1 on the site, so I wonder if they are calling the WS1 the CS1. I'm not sure. I still need to do more due diligence on both, since the other says they make their own valves from Fleck valves. I'm not 100% sure what that means.
I currently have a 0.75 cuft unit with the 5600 econominder. It still works, but it's from 2001 so I've been wondering if its starting to be on borrowed time. I think it's regenerating every other night, if I remember right.
You bring up a good point. One of the shops I mentioned installed our current water softner. They said that the standard install 15 years ago was what we had, and you just counted on frequent regenerations. But it seems like now the trend is to regenerate every 7+ days, and install larger resin tanks to achieve that goal plus keep the flow rate up. The same company said they would install a 1.5 cuft in our house today. I'm not sure what's driving that trend. $$$ for bigger systems perhaps?
That's good advice on the dealer. We do have two widely used shops here that build their own softeners. One uses the Fleck valves, the other uses a Clack CS-1. I don't see CS1 on the site, so I wonder if they are calling the WS1 the CS1. I'm not sure. I still need to do more due diligence on both, since the other says they make their own valves from Fleck valves. I'm not 100% sure what that means.
I currently have a 0.75 cuft unit with the 5600 econominder. It still works, but it's from 2001 so I've been wondering if its starting to be on borrowed time. I think it's regenerating every other night, if I remember right.
You bring up a good point. One of the shops I mentioned installed our current water softner. They said that the standard install 15 years ago was what we had, and you just counted on frequent regenerations. But it seems like now the trend is to regenerate every 7+ days, and install larger resin tanks to achieve that goal plus keep the flow rate up. The same company said they would install a 1.5 cuft in our house today. I'm not sure what's driving that trend. $$$ for bigger systems perhaps?
When your customer doesn't really need anything, but you need to sell something......
The oldest Econominder I have in the field is one that was in service the first time I saw it in 1976. It's still running. If you have the old time-based unit, you can replace just the power head and install a meter module in it and you'll have the meter-based unit, which IS a good idea. I did that for one of my elderly customers - she went from a bag of salt a month to one every 4 months or more. I'm not a real big fan of over-sized softeners, because you're just not gaining much other than spending more to install/maintain. The resin really doesn't last any longer, so you're going to be replacing more every time. If your existing unit has done the job for 15 years.....what's wrong with it that it suddenly needs to be replaced, other than they want to sell one?
Most of us build our own - we often have a special resin that we prefer, or internals that hold up better. They cost us a few bucks more to build that way, but it's OUR name/reputation on the line, and my son will be taking over from me in a few years. To give you an idea, most folks use a distributor that you can crush if you step on it. The one I use I can (literally) drive over with a truck without damage. There's a lot of things going on inside that softener, and a high pressure drop WILL crush a distributor.
If you have the old time-based unit, you can replace just the power head and install a meter module in it and you'll have the meter-based unit, which IS a good idea. I did that for one of my elderly customers - she went from a bag of salt a month to one every 4 months or more.
Interesting! The reason I started investigating this is because we are going through a lot of salt. And my neighbor's softener broke, which is of the same vintage, and when they went to a meter based unit their consumption went way down too. So I started thinking it might be time to evaluate whether we'd benefit from a new one.
So is the Metered Powerhead - FL56M-PH - what I'd be looking for? If so, I'd definitely be down for giving it a whirl. And thanks so much for the ideas!
Interesting! The reason I started investigating this is because we are going through a lot of salt. And my neighbor's softener broke, which is of the same vintage, and when they went to a meter based unit their consumption went way down too. So I started thinking it might be time to evaluate whether we'd benefit from a new one.
So is the Metered Powerhead - FL56M-PH - what I'd be looking for? If so, I'd definitely be down for giving it a whirl. And thanks so much for the ideas!
Get the 5600 "L" and the cover - they're easier to access/work on, IMO. You'll also need the meter module. It's available in a kit form, IIRC.
I had not heard of building a softener from parts by individual shops before. Is there an industry association where I could find a shop like this in my area?
Looking at the owner's manual for my old Sears softener, it's clear that more frequent regenerations with a smaller brine draw will get you more soft water for a given amount of salt. But you are using more water, although, on a well and septic system, the well water is very cheap, you are just paying for pump power.
I had not heard of building a softener from parts by individual shops before. Is there an industry association where I could find a shop like this in my area?
Regular plumbers do it, at least in my area.
Quote:
Looking at the owner's manual for my old Sears softener, it's clear that more frequent regenerations with a smaller brine draw will get you more soft water for a given amount of salt.
That's true _for a given system_. But it's not true when you're designing a system. The amount of soft water you get for a given amount of resin depends nonlinearly on the salt dose. But it depends linearly on the amount of resin, so if you want less frequent regenerations, you can build a bigger system (bigger tank, more resin) with no loss of efficiency.
Furthermore, since you essentially waste any unused capacity in the system when you regenerate, regenerating more often lowers system efficiency by a little bit.
Supposedly "upflow" regeneration results in more salt & water efficiency also, and 5800 series has that whereas the good old 5600 doesn't. But personally if I was going from a non-metered system and I didn't have the California Water Police on my case, I'd say a 5600 metered was good enough. Also "upflow" regeneration supposedly makes the system more sensitive to sediment, which might be a problem with well water.
As for the Sears softener, I really dislike the rotating teflon disc design. When I had one, the disc would wear very quickly, resulting in hard water and time spent replacing disc and seals.
I had not heard of building a softener from parts by individual shops before. Is there an industry association where I could find a shop like this in my area?
Looking at the owner's manual for my old Sears softener, it's clear that more frequent regenerations with a smaller brine draw will get you more soft water for a given amount of salt. But you are using more water, although, on a well and septic system, the well water is very cheap, you are just paying for pump power.
You can try the Water Quality Association. Avoid the big names, look for the smaller shops. I'm a VERY small operation - but my customers get better service than they will anywhere else, because my next customer comes from THEM, not a $50k ad campaign.
Actually, only up to a point. The most efficiency is gained when you regenerate based on 20,000 grains/cu ft with 6 lbs of salt. That's the "sweet spot" of efficiency and capacity.
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I'm not a real big fan of over-sized softeners, because you're just not gaining much other than spending more to install/maintain. The resin really doesn't last any longer, so you're going to be replacing more every time. If your existing unit has done the job for 15 years.....what's wrong with it that it suddenly needs to be replaced, other than they want to sell one?
