Why doesn’t Houston attract as many Calif businesses as Dallas? (Austin: low income, houses)

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Originally Posted by Redlionjr

I think you meant to quote EDS. LOL

Yup. What gave it away lol

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Originally Posted by Redlionjr

Dallas sports franchises have more brand power than Houston and that's in large part due to the Cowboys and figures like Jerry Jones and Mark Cuban but Houston IMO is a much better city when it comes to sporting events. So I doubt there's any merit to Dallas local sports teams influencing companies to relocate to the area. Especially considering how underwhelming DFW is as a host city for sporting events in comparison to Houston.

So despite Houston franchises having less of a brand than Dallas teams the city knows how to host sporting events a lot better imo. Which I think events would attract companies more so than the actual team if anything.

The Mavs are definitely a smaller brand than the Rockets. I don’t think you disagree but I mentioned it because you mentioned Cuban. Which definitely helps thwm in the end but hasn’t changed this yet. But the difference is microscopic compared to the difference between the cowboys and texans. The cowboys alone does put it above though.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by ParaguaneroSwag

In a subjective world where opinions are our own... Yes, there's no suburbs that are evidently better than those in Houston. But for the purposes of this thread, which seems to be a combination of corporate relocations and branch campuses, Dallas has had a better history of this, especially if your definition of a "suburb" makes it to where in order to be a suburb, you have to be outside of the city limits. I say this because there's places within the city limits that to me are as suburban as it comes. Particularly the Energy Corridor and West Chase.

It is true that one can say the Houston suburbs are as good or better than the DFW suburbs since its up to them to decide their opinion. And despite Houston having some great business centric suburbs like the Woodlands, Sugar Land, and Katy is certainly improving, if we discount EC and WC from being suburbs, DFW is objectively better for business. If one's definition of nice suburb doesn't specify on business, than you're absolutely right, there's no evidence that DFW has better suburbs than Houston. I personally don't even like suburban living, but if I did, I would care less about the business side. I'd live in Katy because it has more culture than your typical suburb. And even though Katy is improving it's corporate scene, this is a nonfactor to me.

Also for the sake of this matter, the most important corporate relocation Houston has scored is the Howard Hughes Company from Dallas. Because they're synonymous for building corporate campuses and family style housing. Their new shift to Houston is important for continuing to build corporate campuses, since they are kings of it.

Look, there's no question that DFW has done much better than Houston in attracting corporate relocations, at least until the last year or two. But I don't see how you can make the case that it's because DFW has "better suburbs." Corporate relocations are by and large going to go to the suburbs regardless (occasional exceptions like Comerica, but for the most part it's true). And by suburbs I'm including suburban parts of the core city, like Westchase, Energy Corridor, and Far North Dallas.

Plano has Legacy, yes, which has had stellar success with relocations. But we have The Woodlands and Sugar Land. I don't see why they are any less attractive.

Again, I think Houston's lagging in this regard has much more to do with the role of the oil and gas industry, and the related lack of attempts by Houston area leaders to devote the hard work and resources needed to attract greater diversity of industries, plus some infamy due to hurricanes / flooding / drainage isuses, than inherent inferiority of its suburbs. Yes, north / northwest DFW does mass a huge population of highly educated professionals together in a giant blob, but the fact that Houston spreads that population around much more I just can't see as a serious deterrent.

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

Look, there's no question that DFW has done much better than Houston in attracting corporate relocations, at least until the last year or two. But I don't see how you can make the case that it's because DFW has "better suburbs." Corporate relocations are by and large going to go to the suburbs regardless (occasional exceptions like Comerica, but for the most part it's true). And by suburbs I'm including suburban parts of the core city, like Westchase, Energy Corridor, and Far North Dallas.

Plano has Legacy, yes, which has had stellar success with relocations. But we have The Woodlands and Sugar Land. I don't see why they are any less attractive.

Again, I think Houston's lagging in this regard has much more to do with the role of the oil and gas industry, and the related lack of attempts by Houston area leaders to devote the hard work and resources needed to attract greater diversity of industries, plus some infamy due to hurricanes / flooding / drainage isuses, than inherent inferiority of its suburbs. Yes, north / northwest DFW does mass a huge population of highly educated professionals together in a giant blob, but the fact that Houston spreads that population around much more I just can't see as a serious deterrent.

Then I agree with you. If suburban city limits count, it's not a big difference. And with everything else you mentioned.

Even the last year or two, DFW is doing considerable better, but the margin is muuuuuuch lower than previous. Corporate Relos don't equal bigger growing economy, that is one of many categories of growing economies. That along with logistics, biotech, aerospace, manufacturing, and even the growing tech and finance fields and eventually green energy group to grow the economy. But much like we are the undisputed kings of biotech in Texas, DFW is that of corporate relos for now.

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clutch

I like Dallas too, but its residents have this habit of bragging about things like other places don't also have them. Yes, it does have a nice mix of items/amenities that corporations like, but it also heavily markets itself to get these corporations. Houston really doesn't and is just now starting to get into that game. If Houston had a regional ethos of promotion like that, it would get more relos relative to Dallas. Most of the large companies here have historically been homegrown and largely energy-based, so its a bit of a change to how business has historically been done here. We can learn a lot from Dallas in terms of strategic ways to attract relos.

I don't agree with much of your post but some of your points ring especially hollow.

1. The idea that Dallas traffic is as bad as Houston's is provably false via several objective metrics.
1.1. The surface street routing here is great although were are behind on repairs. Your claim that suburban Dallas surface roads offer better routes indicates you haven't driven around Dallas much. It's way easier to get around Dallas, especially North Dallas, than say Plano via surface streets because there are myriad usable secondary and tertiary roads through many neighborhoods......Northaven, Rosser, Welch etc.

Traffic ranking:

https://houston.culturemap.com/news/...-world-tomtom/

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2. Dallas flatly has significantly lower property and violent crime rates than Houston. These crime rate indexes are pulled from FBI stats and much easier to read.


Moderator cut: link removed, competitor site
Final 2020 data will be bad for both and frankly bad for every big city in the country.

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3. The Rangers lost the 2010 World Series to the Giants and were one misplayed fly ball from winning the 2011 World Series. From an ethics perspective that is better than winning one while provably cheating.

[LocalPlanner]

One other thing very much in Houston's favor right now: a large supply of single-building high quality suburban and downtown office space that could immediately accommodate a large relocating corporate user, at very reasonable lease rates by national standards. This is a hidden benefit of the retrenchment of O&G and something GHP and others should be marketing the heck out of.

[ParaguaneroSwag]

DFW traffic is better than Houston but DFW is also more sprawly and multipolar and less core centric making you have to drive more, so in Mr. Clutch's defense, despite traffic not being as bad, the drive time on average will still be up there. Of course Houston is no stranger to massive sprawl but suburbs revolve around the core, vs multi polar that is DFW where most of the major attractions are all over the place.

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

One other thing very much in Houston's favor right now: a large supply of single-building high quality suburban and downtown office space that could immediately accommodate a large relocating corporate user, at very reasonable lease rates by national standards. This is a hidden benefit of the retrenchment of O&G and something GHP and others should be marketing the heck out of.

Yeah. Most people don't understand this, but despite the downturns and the layoffs they cause, without having grabbed onto O&G, Houston would have also lost the opportunity to use that oil money for schools, corporate campuses, airport terminals, roads, etc etc etc. It definitely causes bumps down the road which aren't missed, but if you went back in time, would you honestly miss out on the oil money and all it brought in?

[EDS_]

Originally Posted by Mr. Clutch

After the Mavs won a title their value finally reached passed the Rockets - keeping in mind that the Rockets were not very good between 2009 and 2012. Then the Rockets franchise value has kept ahead of the Mavs since then.

Yes, given that the Rockets are down now and the Mavs are up, they probably will flip flop for a bit, but as soon as the Rockets are up again their value will increase above the Mavs again because they are a stronger worldwide brand.

Now, should Luka win 3 or 4 titles in Dallas that could all change, but absent a major shift (or one of the two franchises building a new arena) I don't expect the Mavs to be a higher valued brand long term.

IIRC The Mav's lease with AAC runs through '31 with opt outs that begin in '26. Cuban's talking pretty hard about building a new BB only arena just south of downtown.


It's interesting to me you guys are so hung up about the Rockets being worth marginally more than the Mavs but don't seem to care at all the Dallas has the Stars and TMS........which as an aside right now is home to maybe the country's most successful covid vaccine sight. Between the two they offer about 100 opportunities per year to go do something fun.

[ParaguaneroSwag]

Originally Posted by EDS_

IIRC The Mav's lease with AAC runs through '31 with opt outs that begin in '26. Cuban's talking pretty hard about building a new BB only arena just south of downtown.


It's interesting to me you guys are so hung up about the Rockets being worth marginally more than the Mavs but don't seem to care at all the Dallas has the Stars and TMS........which as an aside right now is home to maybe the country's most successful covid vaccine sight. Between the two they offer about 100 opportunities per year to go do something fun.

You're speaking with your head up your ... right now. Literally no one diminished the value of Dallas having the Stars. As a matter of a fact, I went as far as saying I agree when you mentioned it. And as far as I understand, no one else said this either.

Heck, I'm not even going to say the Rockets brand will for sure be bigger than the Mavs brand forever. The Rockets brand is easily superior than the Mavs today, but it certainly isn't the Lakers, Bulls or even the Celtics. Who knows what the next eras of the Mavs and Rockets will bring and what can change. But considering the Mavs are competing for a lottery pick this year, it's way too early to assume. The Mavs are barely passing the Spurs brand before they can creep to the Rockets.