Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
[quote=AK123;8393298]Remember, it's only the west side of Austin that is really hilly.[quote]
Right. And along 35 it looks a lot like...yes, Houston. Especially when you're behind a bunch of taillights on 35. In any case, that part of Austin isn't really all that much to look at. It's a freeway. Freeways tend to be not the most aesthetically pleasing things.
Quote:
They've done a reasonably good job with making the most of a natural asset called trees. There are tough restrictions about cutting them down. Trees are perhaps Houston's biggest natural asset, yet they aren't treated that way. Austin has also done a good job with the Colorado River, turning it into a huge lake instead of concrete ditches like Houston has done with many of its bayous.
The concrete bayous aren't pretty, but you're comparing a river to what is basically a ditch. As far as trees go, I'm sorry, but I don't see how Houston is doing something wrong as far as trees go. Sure, they're cut down out in the subdivisions, but that happens everywhere. At least they name the streets after the trees.
Quote:
But yes, I think Austin would still look reasonably nice even if it were on the coastal prairie. You would see more trees being left standing, fewer billboards, and just more care taken in the way things are developed and how things look. You'd also be less likely to see the clusters of apartment complex after apartment complex that later turns into a dilapidated, crime-ridden area (Sharpstown, Greenspoint, Alief).
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy living in Houston and think it has a lot more to do than Austin... but wow, what a waste of an opportunity for Houston.
Fair enough. What if I think Houston looks "fairly nice" though?
The apartments you talk about are relics of a rapid boom-bust cycle in the 1970s through the 80s. I think developers learned then that they can't just build speculatively expecting a certain demographic to keep coming no matter what happens economically. Those apartments were actually built for young, usually single professionals. They quit pouring in during the oil bust, leaving them looking for somebody to fill their units. Anyone.
As far as trees go, I'm sorry, but I don't see how Houston is doing something wrong as far as trees go. Sure, they're cut down out in the subdivisions, but that happens everywhere.
Exactly, Houston has done a wonderful job of reforesting & beautifying the city along every major freeway. Have you seen the 59 trench lately or the Katy Freeway?
Freedom for regular people, or freedom for developers to do whatever they want?
Giving others the right to tell you what to do with your property is an utterly bizarre definition of "freedom for regular people". Zoning is pretty much the opposite of freedom.
Have you ever lived in a city..let alone a city this large, that has NO ZONING? You notice immediately that something doesn't look right all over the place but you can't put your finger on it. I hve lived all over the US and in lots of big cities but Houston is the only NZ city I have ever seen.
Houston is the largest city with no zoning. I'm sure many smaller towns in Texas don't have many if any zoning laws in place either, at least not the strict ones anyways.
DO I really have to list all of the reasons why No zoming is a bad thing for citizens and an obviously good thing for government and developers...land speculators...banks....... Hey, what can I tell ya? It's TEXAS.
And thank goodness we're in Texas .
So let's see... Houston has no zoning. Of the top 50 largest cities, Houston is ranked #1 in ability to weather the recession.
So let's see... Houston has no zoning. Houston's housing prices have fallen far less than any other major city. Florida (zoning everywhere) prices off 20-30%. Houston-5%. Las Vegas (zoned) off 40%. Houston -5%. Atlanta (zoned) off 25%; Houston -5%.
So let's see... Houston has no zoning. Are people moving to Florida, Atlanta, Phoenix, Vegas, Calif? Nope. Moving to Houston. Yep. Is it because we have no zoning? Of course not. It's because our love of free enterprise makes this a great place to work, to live, to buy a home.
Plus this is one of the most open & diverse cities around.
Location: from houstoner to bostoner to new yorker to new jerseyite ;)
4,084 posts, read 12,685,220 times
Reputation: 1974
What do you do when the O&G industry goes bust and you have NOTHING left to offer people? I don't get the disconnect, the "Houstonian mentality" that says, "Well, we have jobs and people are moving here for jobs, so..." So what? People ARE still moving to all those places as well (well, maybe not California), and would greatly prefer to live in a lot of them.
Houston can begin zoning. As AK123 said, it could apply to newly built structures and over time things will change. They also need to enforce all the eyesores, the abandoned, neglected buildings in otherwise nice areas. This all goes hand in hand with a lack of solid urban planning. I really wonder sometimes what exactly this city's urban planners get paid for.
I would argue that because of Houston's natural environment (which actually isn't that bad, or wouldn't have been had the city had zoning and continued focusing the city around the bayous rather than sprawling outwards for infinity and not built so many massive freeways and plopped industrial crap and shotgun shacks everywhere) it is even more imperative that emphasis be placed to make its built environment attractive. That's why people don't notice how flat cities like Chicago are, because of its built environment.
I would like for some of you no zoning advocates to look at pictures of old Houston back when the city actually cared about aesthetics and then tell me you still believe no zoning is a good idea.
You see, Houston does kind of have zoning, we just don't call it that.
I think this guy's on to something. Things sprawled out because it was made to by municipal codes (you say zoning, I say municipal codes, you say potato, I say....anyway). Things have changed. Cheap gas isn't taken for granted anymore. People are changing and will changing, and the city will have to meet a new need and demand. That's the way the deregulated approach is supposed to work.
Thing is, as far as us not having any zoning or any regulations as to what goes where and how - we've never really had that.
Location: The land of sugar... previously Houston and Austin
5,429 posts, read 14,844,510 times
Reputation: 3672
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfre81
As far as trees go, I'm sorry, but I don't see how Houston is doing something wrong as far as trees go. Sure, they're cut down out in the subdivisions, but that happens everywhere. At least they name the streets after the trees.
I've seen plots of land, mostly on freeways, which have been completely cleared by developers even long before anything was put there. One example is Beltway 8 at 290. I believe Austin has some sort of ordinance against removing too many of the trees (or if you do, they must be replaced).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfre81
The apartments you talk about are relics of a rapid boom-bust cycle in the 1970s through the 80s. I think developers learned then that they can't just build speculatively expecting a certain demographic to keep coming no matter what happens economically. Those apartments were actually built for young, usually single professionals. They quit pouring in during the oil bust, leaving them looking for somebody to fill their units. Anyone.
I know this was the case with Sharpstown, but was it with Alief too? I hear former residents saying it was a great single-family home area until developers over-building apartments, for whatever reason. Same goes for the FM 1960 / Bammel area.
I'd like to see Sharpstown get redeveloped, and the old apartment complexes come down to make way for mid-range single-family home neighborhoods. Something that could be a more affordable extension of Bellaire, for example.
What do you do when the O&G industry goes bust and you have NOTHING left to offer people? I don't get the disconnect, the "Houstonian mentality" that says, "Well, we have jobs and people are moving here for jobs, so..." So what? People ARE still moving to all those places as well (well, maybe not California), and would greatly prefer to live in a lot of them.
O&G goes bust? Well we've seen the outcome of that in the 80s and late 90s. O&G is a large part of our economy but we've grown quite a lot in other areas. Not to mention the amount of industry and business need to serve/take care of a metro of 5.5 million.
I'm not sure what your point is with the "Houston mentality". Of course Houston isn't on anyone's top ten place to live but reality has shown that affordability and strong job growth usually trumps the great places to live. Obviously, Houston isn't always going to have strong job growth (as we are seeing now) but it is positioned well in the long term I believe.
Quote:
I would argue that because of Houston's natural environment (which actually isn't that bad, or wouldn't have been had the city had zoning and continued focusing the city around the bayous rather than sprawling outwards for infinity and not built so many massive freeways and plopped industrial crap and shotgun shacks everywhere) it is even more imperative that emphasis be placed to make its built environment attractive. That's why people don't notice how flat cities like Chicago are, because of its built environment.
Zoning does not prevent sprawl. The D.C. area sprawls endlessly, even with its zoning, attractiveness, dense, older core. Not to mention how Boston and Philadelphia sprawl endlessly past their city boundaries. Not to mention Phoenix, DFW, and ATL.
The massive freeways keeps Houston's congestion lower for a metro area of its size. D.C has a very extensive commuter rail system and has some of the worst congestion for a metro its size.
I'm not arguing against making some changes that would allow more aesthetically pleasing development nor am I against expanding commuting options but zoning doesn't somehow solve Houston's problems or the perception of them by the general public. This "no zoning" business is somewhat deceptively misleading; Houston does have many types of regulations that dictate land use, as I and someone else previously mentioned.
Quote:
I would like for some of you no zoning advocates to look at pictures of old Houston back when the city actually cared about aesthetics and then tell me you still believe no zoning is a good idea.
Not sure how old these pictures are but its pretty unfair to compare pre auto-dominated Houston to post auto-dominated Houston. However, seeing all the historic buildings being pillaged and turned into surface parking is pretty tough.
I know this was the case with Sharpstown, but was it with Alief too? I hear former residents saying it was a great single-family home area until developers over-building apartments, for whatever reason. Same goes for the FM 1960 / Bammel area.
I'd like to see Sharpstown get redeveloped, and the old apartment complexes come down to make way for mid-range single-family home neighborhoods. Something that could be a more affordable extension of Bellaire, for example.
Sharpstown and Alief were both great areas in the 70s and early 80s and we know what happens after that. Zoning wouldn't have prevented any of this unless we had some kind of growth boundary.
So you would like Sharpstown to displace its lower income individuals to allow middle class to come in and make the area more nice? After reading your thread about Sugar Land and the low income apartment complex, I wouldn't think you these lower income people to be displaced. They might end up in those low income apartments in Sugar Land.
The general perception is that Sharpstown and Alief are ghetto and run down areas but no one really bothers to drive through and explore it. There are still good neighborhoods and good businesses there. I don't see the point in having these areas gentrify rapidly, there are many professionals and working class families who live there and work in Houston. It seems the general perception is it is nothing but thug life in these areas. However, these areas serve their purpose of providing housing to an ethnically diverse group of lower income to lower middle income.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
.
