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Status:
"48 years in MD, 18 in NC"
(set 14 days ago)
Location: Greenville, NC
2,309 posts, read 6,104,814 times
Reputation: 1430
I studied this to death. It doesn't even come close to being cost effective or have the ability to operate a house. If all you're looking to do is power a couple of lights and maybe a TV then it could do it. It wouldn't be cost effective though.
To power a regular house including oven, cooktop, water heater, dryer, and heat pump would require several acres of panels and a huge battery bank. The cost would probably be well over $100,000 and after a few years it would require regular, expensive maintenance.
Now if you were to use natural gas or propane as your main energy source the cost of the system would come down significantly since all you would need electricity for would be things like TVs, clocks, lights, etc. You would still have to power the heat pump with electricity but you could have gas as the supplemental heat instead of a electric heat strip. But then you would be subject to the sometimes wild fluctuations in gas prices.
At this time the best thing you can do is to replace your electric appliances with gas as your electric appliances wear out. It is not cost effective to replace perfectly functioning electric appliances with gas appliances.
I say this with all due respect to the poster above me.
What a crock.
$100,000 for a solar system? Maybe if you use 70,000kWh a year.
I have a solar system on my roof that is wiping out ALL my electric bills and I spent about $12k in cash on it. My return on investment is in about 5-6 years and could come a lot sooner depending on utility rate increases.
My maintenance is basically zero. I spray down my panels with a hose a few times a year and they are good to go. I have another 30% in government tax credits that I have yet to use, eventually lowering my out of pocket cost to under $10,000.
The system has a 25 year efficiency warranty, and a 10 year materials warranty. Expected lifespan is 35-45 years. I have yet to have any issues with and any power that my panels produce and I don't consume, the utility credits me for.
Right now, if you combine utility and government rebates, it comes out to around 60-70% off the cost of a solar system. It's a great time to look into solar, just make sure your installer offers competitive pricing.
A range of $5.30-$6.50 a watt before any rebates/incentives is a good place to start, anything higher than that and you're getting screwed over.
Last edited by Juram; 02-23-2010 at 03:29 PM..
Reason: the personal comment wasn't necessary
I agree that solar can be worth it, but comparing use of residential solar panels in Phoenix to our area is a stretch, you just aren't going to get the same efficiency out of solar here as you do in a southwestern desert.
As many single-family houses in our area do use gas, I suspect that you could make a substantial dent in your electric bill with solar unless you have a large, all-electric house with a heat pump (which are not very efficient in a cold winter). I'd recommend getting some data from power companies and state agencies concerning actual statistics and what you are likely to save based on the set up you are likely to use.
I say this with all due respect to the poster above me.
What a crock.
$100,000 for a solar system? Maybe if you use 70,000kWh a year.
I have a solar system on my roof that is wiping out ALL my electric bills and I spent about $12k in cash on it. My return on investment is in about 5-6 years and could come a lot sooner depending on utility rate increases.
My maintenance is basically zero. I spray down my panels with a hose a few times a year and they are good to go. I have another 30% in government tax credits that I have yet to use, eventually lowering my out of pocket cost to under $10,000.
The system has a 25 year efficiency warranty, and a 10 year materials warranty. Expected lifespan is 35-45 years. I have yet to have any issues with and any power that my panels produce and I don't consume, the utility credits me for.
Right now, if you combine utility and government rebates, it comes out to around 60-70% off the cost of a solar system. It's a great time to look into solar, just make sure your installer offers competitive pricing.
A range of $5.30-$6.50 a watt before any rebates/incentives is a good place to start, anything higher than that and you're getting screwed over.
You also live in Phoeniz, don't you? That is very different from Maryland!
Can you post the brand/type of solar systems you have? I am interested in looking into it. Can you give some links to info on the types of panels you installed?
I doubt it would be cost effective for me since I live in Pittsburgh (it is cloudy 180+ days per year), but those links would help other people a lot.
Also, the government rebate is a flat 30%, isn't it?
Status:
"48 years in MD, 18 in NC"
(set 14 days ago)
Location: Greenville, NC
2,309 posts, read 6,104,814 times
Reputation: 1430
Juram, what are you powering with those few panels?
It doesn't matter where he lives. The average 20 by 44 panel makes 25kw of 120V A/C power a year. My house used 15,670kw last year. That comes out to 628 panels.
Let me explain the problem with these panels. When they sell these panels they are quick to point out that a specific panel might make 150 watts of power. That's all fine and good. They're not lying. The panel probably does make 150 watts of power. The problem is in how many volts that power is. Normally it's around 12 to 15 volts. The conversion to 120 volts is linear assuming no loss in the inversion process which there always is. So if you have a panel that makes 150 watts of 12 volt power it will convert to 15 watts of 120V AC power. A flat panel TV uses about 100 watts of 120V AC power. You'd need 6.6 panels just to power your TV. Since you only have about 8 hours of usable sunlight in the winter time on a clear day that would mean you'd need about 20 panels just to store enough energy to power that TV 24 hours a day.
If solar power was the answer doesn't it make sense that everybody would already be using it?
If solar power was the answer doesn't it make sense that our government would be screaming for everybody to switch over to it instead of screaming for cap and trade?
If solar power was the answer doesn't it make sense that the power companies everywhere would be building huge banks of it?
I've seen this kind of stuff come and go. People get these things installed on their roofs and they fail after a while. Then when it's time to install a new roof the stuff comes off and never goes back up. For those of you that can remember, how many solar water heating systems have you ever seen installed and then torn back off.
The time will come when panels are efficient enough to power a house. Right now the most efficient panels are only good for about 40% energy capture. And these panels are so expensive that only NASA can afford them.
I agree that solar can be worth it, but comparing use of residential solar panels in Phoenix to our area is a stretch, you just aren't going to get the same efficiency out of solar here as you do in a southwestern desert.
As many single-family houses in our area do use gas, I suspect that you could make a substantial dent in your electric bill with solar unless you have a large, all-electric house with a heat pump (which are not very efficient in a cold winter). I'd recommend getting some data from power companies and state agencies concerning actual statistics and what you are likely to save based on the set up you are likely to use.
New Jersey is the most solar-heavy state in the United States. Washington is 2nd.
These aren't panels from the 60s, they are remarkably a lot more efficient, even on cloudy days. Yea, you won't have as much sunshine as you do in AZ, but you can still easily wipe out your electric bill and have an ROI in under 7-8 years(much faster if Cap and Trade ever comes into play).
Talk to your local utilities, talk to installers around the state, talk to at least 5 or 6, get pricing PER WATT BEFORE ANY INCENTIVES. Some companies will try to throw you off by giving you pricing based after incentives or not including certain costs like mounting/bracketing...etc.
Get the bottom line figure, and after you find out price per watt, ask them how much power their panels are expected to generate. Not all panels are created the same. A 5k system of one panel could generation a great deal more power than a 5k of a lesser panel. Ask questions, be informed, don't fall for any accounting gimmicks.
Juram, what are you powering with those few panels?
It doesn't matter where he lives. The average 20 by 44 panel makes 25kw of 120V A/C power a year. My house used 15,670kw last year. That comes out to 628 panels.
Sir you are remarkably misinformed. I really do suggest reading up. A house that uses about 16kwh would require an 8-10k system depending on the panel type. A conventional panel, such as a Sharp, would require you to use somewhere between 60 and 68 panels. A Sunpower or Sanyo system would have you somewhere in the mid 50's for panels. An 8k Sunpower system will produce roughly 15500-16000 kWh per year.
With current incentives, such a system will run you about $22,000 upfront, and then under $10k after all federal tax credits and incentives have been deducted. So you're getting 20+ years of electricity for under $10 grand in the long-run................horrible investment!
Quote:
Let me explain the problem with these panels. When they sell these panels they are quick to point out that a specific panel might make 150 watts of power. That's all fine and good. They're not lying. The panel probably does make 150 watts of power. The problem is in how many volts that power is. Normally it's around 12 to 15 volts. The conversion to 120 volts is linear assuming no loss in the inversion process which there always is. So if you have a panel that makes 150 watts of 12 volt power it will convert to 15 watts of 120V AC power. A flat panel TV uses about 100 watts of 120V AC power. You'd need 6.6 panels just to power your TV. Since you only have about 8 hours of usable sunlight in the winter time on a clear day that would mean you'd need about 20 panels just to store enough energy to power that TV 24 hours a day.
I have about 30 panels powering my whole home, cloudy day or otherwise. You really need to read up as I think your conversions are completely out of whack. Talk lo a few local installer's, a reputable one will have their own engineers that put together all the conversion rates based on panel efficiency and local area conditions. They'll be able to give you a pretty close approximate number of panels needed to power your whole home and its absolutely nowhere near 600, or even 100, not sure where you got that from.
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If solar power was the answer doesn't it make sense that everybody would already be using it?
If cars made sense, wouldn't everybody be using them instead of horses? Solar used to be a bad investment, due to the cost per watt, the long ROI....etc, with all the incentives out there and reduced cost on solar in general, times have changed.
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If solar power was the answer doesn't it make sense that our government would be screaming for everybody to switch over to it instead of screaming for cap and trade?
They are screaming, just as they did in Germany before Cap and Trade was passed. After we have Cap and Trade, the government won't give a damn, people can pay extra for electricity or go solar, right now we have the carrot approach, later on we're getting the stick approach.
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If solar power was the answer doesn't it make sense that the power companies everywhere would be building huge banks of it?
They are building huge plants but of a much different variety. To build a massive solar plant, it requires a solar thermal approach which unlike residential solar, requires water, thus this is a big cost factor that makes it a much less valuable investment.
Quote:
I've seen this kind of stuff come and go. People get these things installed on their roofs and they fail after a while. Then when it's time to install a new roof the stuff comes off and never goes back up. For those of you that can remember, how many solar water heating systems have you ever seen installed and then torn back off.
Entirely different era. As far as solar water heating, I agree, the systems are relatively expensive and electric heaters are getting more efficient and less expensive.
Quote:
The time will come when panels are efficient enough to power a house. Right now the most efficient panels are only good for about 40% energy capture. And these panels are so expensive that only NASA can afford them.
Stop repeating this nonsense. There are endless houses all over the country that are using straight solar to power their home completely and are actually going to get a return on their investment unlike what happens with perpetually paying the utilities.
Like I said, I haven't had a power bill since solar was installed on my home. At the end of the year, the utility even sends me a small check, wholesale rate for the extra power I've produced. My system is relatively maintenance free and has a warranty that is longer than the ROI on it. I'm more than happy and satisfied with it.
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