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I have not participated on a City-Data forum since early last October, and being at an age that has me drifting into senility, I'm unable to find the discussion I was involved in or the posts that I contributed. The issues were the usual back and forth about how illegal immigration is illegal, and about how hiring illegal immigrants is not so bad, just so long as nothing is done to attract illegal immigrants, like, for example, hiring them.
My unpopular position was that stronger measures should be taken against the employers of illegal immigrants. My very strong suspicion is that people who gain no income in the US will not come to the US. But the US has a peculiar resistance in seeing how it is complicit in the very activities it finds so objectionable about Mexico and Mexicans.
The US has traditionally been the most eager employer of illegal immigrants, just as it is the most eager consumer of the drugs that are either produced in Mexico or funneled through Mexico. A peculiarity of American morality dictates that those who provide putatively immoral services or substances are criminals of weak moral fiber, while those who purchase the services and substances are innocent victims of opportunity. The typical American would not dream of encouraging a drug trade, or of provoking genocidal activities of cartels, or of encouraging Mexicans to do something so morally reprehensible as provide cheap labor for American employers. The curious denial of Americans that they are partners in international crime allows them to imagine that they walk on high moral ground, and that the problems of other nations, such as Mexico, are due to bad breeding, inadequate intelligence, and a failure to appreciate innate American superiority. That a nation can be so irretrievably divorced from reality provides great comedy for rational people who are not directly victimized by American delusions of saintly grandeur, but people who must suffer the brutal results of America's self-righteous self-image are more confused than amused.
By no means does the American psyche limit its imaginary role as innocent victim to demonize the populations of other nations. They go on to blame MacDonald's for making them obese, and they maintain that automobiles force them to drive. Guns force them to kill, and credit cards demand that they overspend.
So people who are forced to eat quarter-pounders while chatting on their cell phones while driving under duress, and whose guns demand being fired at random living targets while their credit cards insist they live beyond their means are clearly helpless to do anything about hiring Mexican employees, and these poor victims of American privilege have no choice but to consume the drugs they disapprove of. Pity the poor American: He or she is completely at the mercy of mindless goods and services, and must live by the terms of inferior ethnicities who lack the high moral and ethical standards that flourish in wealthier, more powerful nations.
It is commonly known that heroine addiction in American is Afghanistan's fault, and cannabis was invented by a shrewd Mexican chemist during the early 1960s. Coca leaves were developed a few years later by a subversive Bolivian who was opposed to truth and justice and the American Way. He knew that rock stars would be powerless over dried leaves and that dedicated fans would be morally obligated to emulate their idols. Latin Americans can be so diabolically clever when it comes to peddling dried leaves.
My own dream is to stop emigration from Mexico. But my reasons are not quite the same as those expressed by either Lou Dobbs or by the Neo Nazis. I want my Mexican brothers to stay home in Mexico and take action toward making Mexico a livable country for Mexicans.
I am accustomed to the sound bytes and erroneous ideas typically expressed by El Pasoans and other Texans to the effect that Mexico's weak economy is a direct result of the inferiority of Mexican intelligence and morality. I realize that this assessment is not uniquely Texan, but my location makes Texas my closest source of misinformation.
Although many will disapprove of my assessment of the problems, I think most of us share the ideal that the best place for Mexicans is Mexico. The US can no longer afford to import an inexpensive labor force, since Americans have themselves become cheap labor. And Mexico can no longer afford to dump some of its most productive citizens from one weak economy into another failing economy.
Another problem facing both nations - the US and Mexico - is institutional irrelevance. The militarization of Mexico has been a complete fracaso - disaster. One of Mexico's greatest problems is the high number of ignorant, unemployed youngsters bearing arms. This problem can hardly be solved by a military presences, since, after all, the very definition of a soldier is: an unemployed youngster bearing arms. It is beyond me how the trouble-shooters and problem solvers in the Federal District of Mexico thought they could end violence in Chihuahua - Juarez in particular - by sending poorly trained, trigger happy youngsters into an area of which the youngsters were completely ignorant to do battle with an undefined enemy. Cartel affiliates don't march through town bearing emblems or banners indicating membership in any particular group. The only people who can be identified are the soldiers, and you can't help but wonder just who they are supposed to be protecting since all parties involved on this side of the river are Mexican. Call me old fashioned, but I would suggest that sending your troops to do battle with your citizens is a somewhat counterproductive approach to national defense.
To whatever extent our nightmarish death rate in Juarez is truly related to the drug trade, there are only two reasonable solutions that come to mind. One would be for the American consumers to boycott the product. But, since that isn't going to happen, an option would be to legalize the drug trade, and let the US and Mexican government officials work out how they want to tax and regulate the business.
There will be, of course, problems with legalized drugs just as there are problems with legalized gambling and prostitution. However, the death rate in Mexico - especially in Ciudad Juarez - clearly indicates an urgency that does not allow for further quibbling over the morality of allowing people access to drugs that they are already buying and selling. Legalizing the substances and the business will lower the profits for the dealers, but Parke-Davis continued to do a thriving business after finally taking their heroine cough syrup off the market. There will still be adequate profits for the entrepreneurs, and the business can be pursued without the horrifying conditions now suffered by the citizens of Mexico.
If we can put an end to the killing fields of Chihuahua and Sonora and Sinaloa, we can then go on with further discussion of how to make Mexico livable for Mexicans. Until that happens, it is pointless to discuss the pros and cons of a Mexican presence in the US. It does not matter what laws are passed, people will go where they feel less threatened by murder and less threatened by hunger.
If you are really opposed to the strong Mexican presence in the US, you can not be taken seriously unless you are ready to consider what measures are necessary to make it reasonable for Mexicans to stay in Mexico. Whether or not it is desirable, it is no longer possible for any nation to simply "mind its own business." If, as a US citizen, you see the Mexican presence as a problem, it is in your own best interests to demonstrate concern about the problems of Mexico.
Also, bear in mind that as you ponder the poverty and alleged corruption of this "Third World Country," the US is developing a US born "Third World" population. Mexico is no longer the only country on the North American continent that has people living without jobs, living without homes, and living without adequate medical care or acceptable education. True enough, those of you in the US still enjoy a stronger economy (propped up with a little help from your friends in Communist China), and you are under no immediate threat of being demoted from your status as a world power. But, face it, calling the US the land of unlimited opportunity, or denying that of necessity the youth of the US must learn to live with reduced expectations is simply not in keeping with current US realities.
You may have to learn from your neighbors to the south: When you get a new member of the family or have an old member of the family that needs to move in with you, your only option may be to add more water to the beans.
In any event, if enough of you are interested, I would like to start a blog or a forum or a topic to discuss the issue "How to Make Mexico More Livable for Mexicans." This will require some of you to put aside your Jingoistic biases and give more serious consideration to Mexican history, Mexican resources, Mexican manufacturing and agriculter, Mexican economy and other matters above the typical level of ignorant commentary to the effect that, "Them goldurned furiners ain't no good nohow." I hear enough of that sort of goofiness from my neighbors in Texas, who, by the way, are hardly in a position to criticize the level of education in Mexico.
It's good to be back with City-Data. I hope I'm not committing any prohibited gross social blunders or violating any sacred standards of expression here. I received some notification that I was being a bad boy in some of my previous posts. I hope I've improved upon my social skills and have learned that one must never say things that one must never say. Far be it from me to offend somebody with truth or honesty.
I see nothing lucid or brilliant about it at all, though it will be rather popular with the liberal elitists who eternally delight in bashing anything American. I found it rather hilarious where at the end, after a page of unrestrained America bashing full of the usual cliches, he called on Americans to open their minds and not resort to the "jingoistic biases".
Pot, kettle, black. I would suggest if you want respect and consideration you start by giving it to those whom you ask of it.
"If you are really opposed to the strong Mexican presence in the US, you can not be taken seriously unless you are ready to consider what measures are necessary to make it reasonable for Mexicans to stay in Mexico. Whether or not it is desirable, it is no longer possible for any nation to simply "mind its own business." If, as a US citizen, you see the Mexican presence as a problem, it is in your own best interests to demonstrate concern about the problems of Mexico."
Ah, so we come to the heart of it. Since Mexico has tried and failed to solve it's problems then it should be the responsibility of Americans to solve them.
I see nothing lucid or brilliant about it at all, though it will be rather popular with the liberal elitists who eternally delight in bashing anything American. I found it rather hilarious where at the end, after a page of unrestrained America bashing full of the usual cliches, he called on Americans to open their minds and not resort to the "jingoistic biases".
Pot, kettle, black. I would suggest if you want respect and consideration you start by giving it to those whom you ask of it.
"If you are really opposed to the strong Mexican presence in the US, you can not be taken seriously unless you are ready to consider what measures are necessary to make it reasonable for Mexicans to stay in Mexico. Whether or not it is desirable, it is no longer possible for any nation to simply "mind its own business." If, as a US citizen, you see the Mexican presence as a problem, it is in your own best interests to demonstrate concern about the problems of Mexico."
Ah, so we come to the heart of it. Since Mexico has tried and failed to solve it's problems then it should be the responsibility of Americans to solve them.
True. If anything leaving the borders wide open for the drug cartels to exploit and control is what can be blamed on the USA. The cartels have become extremely rich because they've been allowed to do whatever it is they like, and they thrive on much misery pushing their highly addictive poisons and destroying many people and families.
The only reason someone wants to deal something like methamphetamine, heroin, etc is that they have far too much greed. Making these greedy "merchants" legitimate doesn't really help anyone. Some effort to closing the border and cutting these corrupt violent individuals from their money source should be made.
Classic case of Mexicans trying to justify their criminality and destructiveness. There is a market for everything illegal and destructive out there. If you decide to partake in that to make money its you that has the blame not anyone else. Its you who loses their soul.
Also the argument about the thirst for drugs doesnt hold up anyway. If heroin immediately went from $5/hit to $500/hit tomorrow addictive types would just get oxycontin or codeine. Which is much less dangerous.
People who did softer drugs would just move onto booze.
So the cheap supply does fuel the demand. Mexicans are creating demand for their destructive product.
Mexicans need to own up to their part in the destructiveness of drugs instead of pointing fingers at the victims.
Im am glad that people want to speak with logic about this issue I am mexican myself. Indeed the best thing to do is make Mexico a better place to live. The Mexican economy is weak now and of course because its main traiding partner is the U.S. but its not a small economy trillion dollar economy is the largest in the spanish speaking world including spain and 12th largest in the world. The income per capita is a bit over $10,000, and Mexico is the 6th largest oil producer in the world even though it is has less oil now. It also has the largest corporations in Latin America like PEMEX, CEMEX, TELMEX, Grupo Bimbo, Televisa, Homex, Grupo Maseca, and others. Mexico has a large enough economy and resources to become a developed nation which by the way its going towards development and its the most developed nation in latin america, like I said it has a large enough economy and resources to become a developed nation. BUT THERE IS A PROBLEM, well it suffers from many one of them one is income innequality for example 10% of the richest population owns 45% of the countrie's wealth while the 10% poorest own less than 1% other of the many problems is corruption. Mexicans see their government as corrupt, they only benefit themselves and the rich (not drug warlords, they are not the richest in mexico even though they are very rich) like Carlos Slim the third richest man in the world and the richest man in mexico owner of TELMEX and other companies. The mexican government knows that if they modified laws so that average people can invest with more security they and the rich would loose power. Usually corporations dont pay taxes neither government officials. The government steals tax money from the ones that always pay which are the people. I also think mexico's president is illegitimate and that he did fraud in eleccion
its a long story that will probably get me out of subject. Another is that cities have a higher standard of living than rural areas while many places in mexico like san pedro garza in the state of nuevo leon have a human development index similar to Germany or New Zealand while in contrast other regions like border cities and southern mexican states have a development index similar to Syria. Mexico's population of 111 million goes like this %10 is upper class 35%-%45 is middle class and and the other 45% is lower class and of that 45% 20% are in extreme poverty. And people from that 45% are the people that come to America to get a better life most of them being from rural areas. The people that you want back to Mexico are the unemployed the poor low educated people of Mexico that just want to earn 10 times more than what they earn in their country. And what else do you want them to do looking for a legal way to the US take a lot of money and requirements and they dont have those things just tell me what do you want them to do, because they cant rely in their government like you guys, the only way to get a better life for them is to go north. If america sends all those immigrants back to Mexico all those 12 million are goin to fall in poverty. Mexico's health care is great even better than the one in America but not in rural areas, public education is a bit above decent but there is private education, but none of both in rural areas. Because violence has nithing to do wether Mexico as a hole is good or not because the drug war is only in the border states the north western coastal and east coast states of Mexico. And the only reason we send our military and federal police is because the local police became corrupt. The military is very prepared in the contrary of what you said, but they need to learn to fight urban warfare if they want to win. The mexican military and federal police are enough to handle the situation. If mexico want to become a better nation for the people that live in Mexico it need to get rid of corrupt politicians, solve the income innequality, educate the unneducated and provide more employement for the ones that need it.
"Im am glad that people want to speak with logic about this issue I am mexican myself."
Yes, speaking with logic means leaving out the bashing and stereotyping, and sticking to the facts and reasonable thought. You seem to be able to do this, unlike the OP. But one little tip: paragraphs are your friend.
"BUT THERE IS A PROBLEM, well it suffers from many one of them one is income innequality for example 10% of the richest population owns 45% of the countrie's wealth while the 10% poorest own less than 1%"
It's no different in the U.S. in fact it is worse. "The wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation's net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%, and the bottom 40% of the population owns way less than 1%. " Wealth Distribution
"The people that you want back to Mexico are the unemployed the poor low educated people of Mexico that just want to earn 10 times more than what they earn in their country. And what else do you want them to do looking for a legal way to the US take a lot of money and requirements and they dont have those things just tell me what do you want them to do, because they cant rely in their government like you guys, the only way to get a better life for them is to go north. If america sends all those immigrants back to Mexico all those 12 million are goin to fall in poverty."
I understand that. I can empathise with their position and desperation but that does not entitle them to enter the U.S. illegally, use it's infrastructure, extract wealth from it's economy, and send it back to Mexico.
You may think the U.S. treats illegals harshly but a illegal in the U.S. has more rights than a legal immigrant in Mexico. Mexico doesn't tolerate those who illegally enter Mexico. Why should the U.S.? If the U.S. adopted the immigration policies of Mexico, immigrant advocates would have a stroke.
"Because violence has nithing to do wether Mexico as a hole is good or not because the drug war is only in the border states the north western coastal and east coast states of Mexico."
"If mexico want to become a better nation for the people that live in Mexico it need to get rid of corrupt politicians, solve the income innequality, educate the unneducated and provide more employement for the ones that need it."
No disagreement there, particularly the corruption. Another thing, perhaps related, is they need to have clearly published laws that are enforced consistently. I've found that getting a definitive answer from an official is next to impossible. Ask ten different people and you'll get ten different answers. The rules change from day to day, city to city, person to person.
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All of these posts are extremely interesting. It is good to get the other side of the story from a Mexican person wanting to make his country more amenable to its citizens instead of the steady Lou-Dobbs diet of bigotry.
Having said that, I have to agree with a couple of things. One is that as long as the US manufactures the guns it sends to Mexico, buys its drug products and utilizes the flow of cheap labor, we bear some responsibility for that country's woes.
OTOH, why is life so cheap in Mexico? Maybe there is too much of it. Mexican families tend to be huge. As a Catholic-oriented country, birth control is not exactly high on the list of priorities. Why not promote smaller families with chances for a better quality of life? If Mexico cannot support its citizens, it's not clear to me why other countries should.
Mexico is a beautiful country and the people deserve better than the violence and death associated with drug cartels. If our two countries can work together with mutual respect we might at least get started. We share a border and a continent and should be friendly neighbors.
All of these posts are extremely interesting. It is good to get the other side of the story from a Mexican person wanting to make his country more amenable to its citizens instead of the steady Lou-Dobbs diet of bigotry.
Can you give a few examples of this "bigotry" or are you just repeating what you've heard? Wanting to enforce the law is not bigotry, even if the lawbreaker is a minority. Wanting to protect one's national interests is not bigotry either. All countries do it, only the U.S. gets lambasted for doing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExNooYawk
Having said that, I have to agree with a couple of things. One is that as long as the US manufactures the guns it sends to Mexico, buys its drug products and utilizes the flow of cheap labor, we bear some responsibility for that country's woes.
Ok, it's easy to speak in broad generalizations but define that level of responsibility. What exactly are we obligated to do about it? Not so easy now, huh?
And it's a myth that the U.S. is the reason the cartels are so well armed. (Americans aren't "sending" guns to Mexico, Mexicans are coming here and taking them back.) Read the links I provided. The cartels are fighting with automatic assault rifles, machine guns, and grenades. You don't walk into a gun store even in Texas and buy that stuff. The biggest source of heavy weaponry for the cartels is the Mexican military.
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Guns force them to kill, and credit cards demand that they overspend.
