Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
For me, though, although I could maybe appreciate the quality of the smaller house, I'd go with the bigger house that's not as fancy, because I need the space. I've had space problems for most of my life, and maybe because of that, I'd never think that a house was too big (I wouldn't even think that a palace or a castle were too big, lol), but I frequently think they're too small. Unfortunately, my wallet sometimes thinks houses are too big.
I do get that, you see I dont know if I would have fixed up this little house as much as previous nut excuse me owner did, it is a small house. Only 3 bedrooms and 2 baths, and 1400 maybe a bit more tops 1500 square feet. SO I agree, the beauty is I was looking for something that was not huge. So it was good for me, I did not do all this fixing up. And to top it off he went with high end stuff. So I walked into a nice all fixed up, bottom to top home for the prices of other homes not too much cheaper. However there are no huge homes in this little area I am in. If you go 7 miles they are bigger but not in my little development.
This little home was perfect for someone who came from an old wreck of a craftsman home that was not too much bigger and a dump. So I was thrilled to see new roof, etc, etc. However its small and not for everyone despite that its all brand new top to bottom. You see when I came back one of my conditions to move back to NJ was not to have an old wreck where the heat flys out the windows and walls, and to have a better tax bill. This was perfect. Now I wish I could just get rid of some of the keystone light drinkers in the area!!!
Nothing is perfect, however I do get the wanting big!!!
I am going to be honest here and the way the economy is going right now, my dream of retiring in Peapack in the hills with a view may just be a dream. I have lost alot of money in the market, and I am not saying Im broke but it did bring me back to reality. I mean is a house worth all my retirement and no action just to like that area but be so broke that I cant leave my big house? The market could do this again and even though I am in good shape, it was a wake up call. So maybe the next and last house will be the dream but if not ohh well its pretty good where I am now better than I ever thought it would be. However I am scared to take anymore big risks until the economy comes back, so as far as the new car, or spending on furniture or something, I am just chilling and have alot of money in bonds so its really not a time for me to even think BIG. I can afford this little fixed up gem right now and my goal is to just retire and not loose anymore but most important to not worry. I dont know what the future holds but if you have a BIG house, its big bucks heating, cooling, tax. I hope you get your dream!!!!!
Last edited by stevemorse; 12-03-2008 at 07:13 AM..
hey Bill - say the agent at the open house isn't the listing agent (which happens a lot) - are they obligated to represent the seller and not disclose how they feel?
The agent at the open house is an agent of the brokerage that listed the house, and as such is technically the sellers agent. If the seller has agreed to be represented in a dual agency situation then the agent doing the open house can tell the potential buyer that this is a possibility, but until the buyer requests that representation, the agent at the open house represents no one but the seller.
Well, despite the fact that there's a lot of verbiage there, we're not really given enough information in this example about what the agent believes relevant to the buyer's question.
First, just to repeat generally, I want the agent to respond honestly, which means reporting what they actually believe versus something they do not believe, and that includes not avoiding questions (or reframing them as if they were answering a (even slightly) different question instead) to avoid reporting what they actually believe.
If the agent suggested lowering the price because the agent does not believe that the house is worth 685k but 650k (we know from the example that the seller believes, "I know it's worth it", but not whether the agent agrees or has an opinion on that), then the agent should report that they agree with the prospective buyer's opinion. Of course they can say, "However, the seller believes that . . .".
If, on the other hand, the agent agrees that for whatever reasons, "I know it's worth it (685k)", and was only suggesting the lower price as more of a lowballing move to sell the property asap, then again, the agent should report what they believe, and explain to the prospective buyer (again, assuming they believe all this) that while they know that similar properties are listed that much less, the agent believes that it's really worth the asking price because of (whatever the reasons are that they happen to actually believe this). In fact, it would be worthwhile in this situation to give even more info--"You know, I said the same thing to the seller when we were setting the price, but he pointed out that he believes it's really worth the higher price because of x, y and z, and I agree", as long as that actually reflects the agent's beliefs.
This doesn't at all exhaust the things that the agent might believe. For example, if I were the agent. I have a belief that there is no "real value" in the sense of x being worth n, where people can somehow be wrong about what x is "really worth". If I were the agent in this situation, I would say something like "The value of something to someone is whatever a person believes it is worth. I think that the value of real estate is whatever a buyer and seller agree is a fair price for it. The seller and I are aware that there are similar properties are listed on the market for around 650k, but the seller values his property at more than that because of x, y and z." (And hopefully for the seller's sake, x, y and z are characteristics that the similar properties do not have.)
What would definitely be the dishonest answer would be to have an agent who doesn't believe that the property is worth 685, yet who tries to persuade the prospective buyer that the agent believes that it is really worth that because of some set of reasons (like whatever the seller's reasoning was). An agent who is dishonest in this way might end up talking the buyer into putting in an offer for the house at the higher price (although that's probably unlikely, so why bother with the dishonesty anyway), but I certainly do not agree that doing this from a stance of dishonesty is a good thing. In the case where the agent says that they agree with the buyer, but the seller believes . . ., then that buyer is very unlikely to put in an offer for the higher amount, but maybe they'll put in an offer for the lower amount, and then the seller can reject that offer if they wish, while hoping that a buyer comes along who agrees with the seller that contra the going rate for similar properties, this one is worth more.
Why, and since when, is the sellers representative obligated or expected to disclose "what he believes" as opposed to what the seller wants, where the two are not in alignment? As a sellers agent, the obligation is to represent the interests of the seller. Not to push my opinion to the fore, damaging the sellers interests and position. Telling the buyer that I represent the seller, and that I am working to get the seller the best oossible price & terms for their house, is not a lie, and does not in any way mislead the buyer. And if, even though I tell the buyer those things, the buyer chooses to make an offer on the house, regardless of how close to or far from the asking price, I have done my job, for which the seller has agreed to pay me. I can't, and will not, say anything that is not true, but why in the name of all things real estate related would I put my opinion of worth out there? I don't work for or have any obligation to look out for the interests of, the potential buyer. You can call that being dishonest if you want, but I dare say you'd be pretty close to alone in that opinion. And if you ask any person who currently has their house listed for sale if they expect their agent to tell potential buyers that they believe the house is over priced, I doubt that any of them will say yes.
And for the record, even when I absolutely believe the house is priced properly, I don't give my opinion to potential buyers. My opinion is useless to them, and of no relevence. The seller feels he has his house priced really well, and let me show you the reasons for that. Of course, it doesn't surprise me that as a buyer you want to negotiate a lower price. Lets get your offer in writing and see what the seller thiks of it, shall we? Do you have an agent you want to help you with this, or would you like to work with me, as an unrepresented buyer, to get your offer to the seller?
**Occassionally, I'll chuckle & ask them this question; "If I tell you I think the house is priced perfectly, and that it's worth every penny the seller is asking, aren't you going to tell me that I'm just saying that because I work for the seller?" And when they say yes (because they really can't say anything else) I tell them, "Then let's focus on what it's worth to YOU, and not what I feel. After all, it's you that might be living here, not me."
Last edited by Bill Keegan; 12-03-2008 at 07:39 AM..
Why, and since when, is the sellers representative obligated or expected to disclose "what he believes" as opposed to what the seller wants, where the two are not in alignment?
It's an issue of honesty. Hasn't that been what this whole discussion has been about? Our views about honest versus dishonest agents.
Quote:
As a sellers agent, the obligation is to represent the interests of the seller. Not to push my opinion to the fore, damaging the sellers interests and position.
I prefer honest agents. The comment that I (and a couple other people) prefer honest agents was what started this discussion. An agent saying things that they do not believe, as if they believe them (as well as an agent giving evasive or "avoidance" answers),is not an honest agent, whether that dishonesty is in "the interests of the seller" or not. You also mentioned that the code of ethics requires honesty. Maybe the code of ethics should introduce something like "real estate honesty", against the plain old, vanilla, conventional sense of "honesty".
Quote:
Telling the buyer that I represent the seller, and that I am working to get the seller the best oossible price & terms for their house, is not a lie,
That's not a lie as long as it is true, and just without context like that. However, if the seller asks a direct question to the agent and that's given as a avoidance answer, I do not consider that honest. I've mentioned this a few times.
Quote:
I can't, and will not, say anything that is not true,
Big application of the brakes there. Honesty and truth are not the same thing. Honesty is about someone accurately reporting what it is that they believe about something. Truth, without getting into a big philosophical discussion about this, is, in the most succinct conventional/colloquial sense, about "what happens to actually be the case". Thus, you can be honest yet utter a falsehood, OR be dishonest yet utter a truth, as you can believe something that's not actually the case, or not believe something that is actually the case. For example, if I believe that there is a black hole at the center of our galaxy, then I would be honest if I say, "(I believe that) there is a black hole at the center of our galaxy", and dishonest if I say "I do not believe that there is a black hole at the center of our galaxy", and it could be the case that there isn't a black hole at the center of our galaxy, despite my beliefs. Alternatively, I might not believe that there is a black hole at the center of the galaxy, and could honestly report that while there actually is a black hole at the center of the galaxy.
Quote:
but why in the name of all things real estate related would I put my opinion of worth out there?
Because someone asked you your opinion and you're honest and non-evasive.
Quote:
. . . You can call that being dishonest if you want, but I dare say you'd be pretty close to alone in that opinion.
Maybe, but I doubt that. We could poll people I guess.
Quote:
And for the record, even when I absolutely believe the house is priced properly, I don't give my opinion to potential buyers. My opinion is useless to them, and of no relevence.
I'm in buyer mode now, with a house under contract, and I do not agree with that. I had someone who seemed to be a very honest real estate person and I valued his opinion as such.
Quote:
The seller feels he has his house priced really well, and let me show you the reasons for that. Of course, it doesn't surprise me that as a buyer you want to negotiate a lower price. Lets get your offer in writing and see what the seller thiks of it, shall we? Do you have an agent you want to help you with this, or would you like to work with me, as an unrepresented buyer, to get your offer to the seller?
If you gave me that answer in response to me asking you if YOU thought it was priced too high, I'd be looking for another agent--well, at least after I asked you a second time, which I'd do, because I don't like evasive or "salesman-like" answers to questions I ask. On the other hand, I'd probably give you a good opportunity to adjust the answer as I roll my eyes and smirk during the first answer, lol.
Last edited by Tungsten_Udder; 12-03-2008 at 08:18 AM..
It's an issue of honesty. Hasn't that been what this whole discussion has been about? Our views about honest versus dishonest agents. I prefer honest agents. The comment that I (and a couple other people) prefer honest agents was what started this discussion. An agent saying things that they do not believe, as if they believe them (as well as an agent giving evasive or "avoidance" answers),is not an honest agent, whether that dishonesty is in "the interests of the seller" or not. You also mentioned that the code of ethics requires honesty. Maybe the code of ethics should introduce something like "real estate honesty", against the plain old, vanilla, conventional sense of "honesty". That's not a lie as long as it is true, and just without context like that. However, if the seller asks a direct question to the agent and that's given as a avoidance answer, I do not consider that honest. I've mentioned this a few times. Big application of the brakes there. Honesty and truth are not the same thing. Honesty is about someone accurately reporting what it is that they believe about something. Truth, without getting into a big philosophical discussion about this, is, in the most succinct conventional/colloquial sense, about "what happens to actually be the case". Thus, you can be honest yet utter a falsehood, OR be dishonest yet utter a truth, as you can believe something that's not actually the case, or not believe something that is actually the case. For example, if I believe that there is a black hole at the center of our galaxy, then I would be honest if I say, "I believe that there is a black hole at the center of our galaxy", and dishonest if I say "I do not believe that there is a black hole at the center of our galaxy", and it could be the case that there isn't a black hole at the center of our galaxy, despite my beliefs. Alternatively, I might not believe that there is a black hole at the center of the galaxy, and could honestly report that while there actually is a black hole at the center of the galaxy. Because someone asked you your opinion and you're honest and non-evasive. Maybe, but I doubt that. We could poll people I guess. I'm in buyer mode now, with a house under contract, and I do not agree with that. I had someone who seemed to be a very honest real estate person and I valued his opinion as such. If you gave me that answer in response to me asking you if YOU thought it was priced too high, I'd be looking for another agent--well, at least after I asked you a second time, which I'd do, because I don't like evasive or "salesman-like" answers to questions I ask. On the other hand, I'd probably give you a good opportunity to adjust the answer as I roll my eyes and smirk during the first answer, lol.
You seem to be forgetting that in the scenario we are discussing, I WORK FOR THE SELLER. I don't work for you. So, if you want an OPINION, or someonen that will help you to justify your opinion, you shouldn't be looking to the sellers agent. Yes, go find your own agent. But please don't honestly tell me you expect the sellers agent to help you justify a lower price. By that token, should you expect your agent to tell the seller, "Hey, my client really likes the house and is offering $450k. I believe the house is worth $500k, because you have those killer granite counters, and your neighbors place, without the granite, went for $510 just a month ago, but he says $450 is as high as he'll go."
You seem to be forgetting that in the scenario we are discussing, I WORK FOR THE SELLER. I don't work for you.
I'm not forgetting that, it's just completely irrelevant to the honesty issue. Whether someone is honest isn't conditional on who they work for.
Quote:
By that token, should you expect your agent to tell the seller, "Hey, my client really likes the house and is offering $450k. I believe the house is worth $500k, because you have those killer granite counters, and your neighbors place, without the granite, went for $510 just a month ago, but he says $450 is as high as he'll go."
Sure, if the agent believes that, the agent is honest, and the seller asks him about that.
I'm not forgetting that, it's just completely irrelevant to the honesty issue. Whether someone is honest isn't conditional on who they work for. Sure, if the agent believes that, the agent is honest, and the seller asks him about that.
It has to do with what "honesty" refers to.
And honesty also doesn't require that I tell you everything I believe. Just that what I tell you is in fact true & not misleading. Telling you that I'm not going to support your assertion because I work for a guy who has a different perspective is in fact honest. It's just not what you want to hear.
And in the interest of complete honesty, I don't believe you. I think you'd be pissed as hell if your agent, while negotiating on your behelf, told the seller or sellers agent of a house you were trying to buy, that his honest opinion was that the house is worth more than you are offering.
Ahh, here's the phrase for which I was combing my brain.
To a client, I give honesty & full disclosure.
To a non client, I give honesty and required disclosure.
And honesty also doesn't require that I tell you everything I believe.
I've already presented my disagreeing view on that four or five times in this thread now. I'll say it again. In my view, it is dishonest to give evasive or avoidance answers to direct questions rather than reporting what one believes.
Quote:
Just that what I tell you is in fact true & not misleading.
And I just addressed this above, too. It's not required that what you say is true for it to be honest.* Truth and honesty are different ideas.
*Again, avoiding philosophical problems here re truth, facts, etc. and just sticking with the most common colloquial sense of "truth".
i messed that up alittle but my point is if all the houses right now are priced around the same in a certain town, and i want a house, why not buy???? I just dont get the logic of why people think they are overpriced when if your in a town looking and they basically are similiar and similiar in price how can they be overpriced?????
because you have been saving for years, watched the market, didn't spend on crazy luxuries...looking to by the house you want to raise a family in, the neighborhood you grew up in and would like to stay in and know that you could get more for you money. Besides the fact that you could lose money quickly because the houses are depreciating! Come on these shacks aren't worth it...for the price no way. Now i'm not saying that i want a mcmansion...but i have saved and sacrificed and know that i should get a better house for half a million dollars...not a shack. You people don't care cause you got what you want...i'm sure 05' 06' sellers have children, family and friends who are stressed and having trouble finding a home. Do you think they would be saying to them...oh well. Why should they say it to us. You're time is over, give someone else a chance to purchase a home at a good price. Especially these sellers who bought a house dirt cheap. I've seen many..they don't want to budge $50,ooo cheaper and their making $450,000 profit. Greed!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
