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When I think about it, and esp when I look at the maps based on the recent Amer Comm Survey data, it strikes me that almost ALL the middle class NYC nabes of my youth in the 1970s are STILL middle class.
ALmost all Staten Island. Most of queens. The sweep of Brooklyn from Bay Ridge to Canarsie. The NE and NW corners of the Bronx.
The main difference is in the racial/ethnic/religious make up of those areas. not class. They are definitely not rich, and still not poor, AFAICT. But where they used to be mainly white, and either gentile or non-O jewish, now they are either african american (like Canarsie, SE queens, NE bronx) new immigrant - (sunset Park, flushing, parts of flatbush, etc) or Orthodox jewish (much of flatbush, boro park, parts of queens, NW bronx)
yes there has been gentrification. Mostly thats been filling out already upper class areas, esp in Manhattan. Or yuppie areas become super yuppie - chelsea, soho, park slope. Some middle class areas have been lost - Greenpoint, N williamsburg (?) south Slope, windsor Terrace (?) A few areas that used to be poor went to rich without really ever being middle class (LES, EV, Hells Kitchen?) SOme areas the gentrifiers pushing out the poor really are middle class not rich (harlem, southern grand concourse?) and in some places, like teh south bronx, new middle class/working classhousing has replaced waste land (but the folks moving in are hispanic, and their middle classness is overlooked)
So my claim is that there has not been a huge loss of middle class housing/nabes in the last 30 years, if we take off our racial/religious blinders.
The gap between rich and poor is growing at an unbelievable rate. It may be hard for you to realize because, as you've stated over and over again, you haven't lived here in quite some time. You can visit and read about and look at maps and look at your statistics all you want. But until you spend a significant amount of constant living in modern day ny, you really should not make such claims....
The gap between rich and poor is growing at an unbelievable rate. It may be hard for you to realize because, as you've stated over and over again, you haven't lived here in quite some time. You can visit and read about and look at maps and look at your statistics all you want. But until you spend a significant amount of constant living in modern day ny, you really should not make such claims....
Thats why I posted this. Folks who live in NYC can fill out the picture, showing whether my initial claim is true or false.
You could add by telling me which neighborhoods that used to be middle class but arent anymore I have overlooked.
Thats why I posted this. Folks who live in NYC can fill out the picture, showing whether my initial claim is true or false.
You could add by telling me which neighborhoods that used to be middle class but arent anymore I have overlooked.
I've actually gotta run out for a while, so I can't get into a whole long debate with you right now. But I will tell you that I am in fact living in hell's kitchen as we speak. It for as long as I can remember was very much a working class neighborhood. Sure it had it's problems, but so did much of the city. Anyway, nowadays you will be hard pressed to find any of that humble, neighborhood feel that it for so long bled. It is either (mostly) crawling with stuck up yuppies who have in effect caused one bedrooms to go for on average about $2,400+/month, or a few low income residents scattered about here and there.
I'm sure others can fill you in, in the meantime....
When I lived in NYC in the 70s I didnt think of hells kitchen as particularly middle class. But I didnt know it well (note my question mark next to it in my list), so I will spot you that one.
I oftentimes ask myself the same question, whether we really lack a middle class. Based on my observations, what I see happening is the following:
-The middle class is alive and well, but now brown and black.
-Many formerly white middle class neighborhoods are now brown and black middle class neighborhoods.
-Some formerly poor brown and black neighborhoods are now working/middle class brown and black neighborhoods.
However, because the brown and black folks are synonymous with poor/undesirable neighborhoods, these middle class brown and black/more mixed neighborhoods (formerly predominantly white) are "written off" as ghetto or now low class/undersirable, which is not the case.
The current and future working/middle class of NYC is brown and black, and over the next 10 years the stigma will change (I hope!). So to answer your question, I think the middle class is here and here to stay, and is brown and black.
I oftentimes ask myself the same question, whether we really lack a middle class. Based on my observations, what I see happening is the following:
-The middle class is alive and well, but now brown and black.
-Many formerly white middle class neighborhoods are now brown and black middle class neighborhoods.
-Some formerly poor brown and black neighborhoods are now working/middle class brown and black neighborhoods.
However, because the brown and black folks are synonymous with poor/undesirable neighborhoods, these middle class brown and black/more mixed neighborhoods (formerly predominantly white) are "written off" as ghetto or now low class/undersirable, which is not the case.
The current and future working/middle class of NYC is brown and black, and over the next 10 years the stigma will change (I hope!). So to answer your question, I think the middle class is here and here to stay, and is brown and black.
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This is what Im thinking. And to me its one of the most hopeful things about NYC demography. NY keeping to its historic vocation of "making middle class people". It gets lost in all the kvetching.
I oftentimes ask myself the same question, whether we really lack a middle class. Based on my observations, what I see happening is the following:
-The middle class is alive and well, but now brown and black.
-Many formerly white middle class neighborhoods are now brown and black middle class neighborhoods.
-Some formerly poor brown and black neighborhoods are now working/middle class brown and black neighborhoods.
However, because the brown and black folks are synonymous with poor/undesirable neighborhoods, these middle class brown and black/more mixed neighborhoods (formerly predominantly white) are "written off" as ghetto or now low class/undersirable, which is not the case.
The current and future working/middle class of NYC is brown and black, and over the next 10 years the stigma will change (I hope!). So to answer your question, I think the middle class is here and here to stay, and is brown and black.
I oftentimes ask myself the same question, whether we really lack a middle class. Based on my observations, what I see happening is the following:
-The middle class is alive and well, but now brown and black.
-Many formerly white middle class neighborhoods are now brown and black middle class neighborhoods.
-Some formerly poor brown and black neighborhoods are now working/middle class brown and black neighborhoods.
However, because the brown and black folks are synonymous with poor/undesirable neighborhoods, these middle class brown and black/more mixed neighborhoods (formerly predominantly white) are "written off" as ghetto or now low class/undersirable, which is not the case.
The current and future working/middle class of NYC is brown and black, and over the next 10 years the stigma will change (I hope!). So to answer your question, I think the middle class is here and here to stay, and is brown and black.
[SIZE=2]Lots of truth in this post. I'd also like to add one, many newcomers often work "under the table" so not all the money in many areas is known. Second, while the middle class often moves out of NY,
many immigrant newcomers arrive and work their way up into middle class, replenishing the cycle.
[/SIZE]
No, it doesn't. It's just that they lack the amenities and convenience that many people are looking for -OR- the entry price point is too high. In many cases, a house in the 'burbs or exurbia will be less expensive than in one of the middle class nabes in the outer boroughs, which is why a lot of middle class people move out.
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