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There's a detailed breakdown of the growth in ridership for lines crossing the Hudson as well as projections of how that would likely keep going--of course, it looks like the crossings are going to be under considerable strain even were the current North River Tunnels to be magically rehabilitated without having to undergo extensive periods of closures. The plan also lists what it thinks are major deficiencies including those of the current layout of the Port Authority Bus Terminal and Penn Station.
Gothamist has an article focused on portions of the plan, including the most ambitious part of having a Penn Station South expansion and a second set of tunnels that go under Manhattan and the East River that then connect with Sunnyside Yards along with a new east side station for commuter rail at 3rd Avenue and 31st Street as seen below:
There is some disagreement on the necessity of a Penn Station South expansion whatsoever though as the current plans still have trains crossing each other in complex interlockings where it's a bit like a crowded parking garage where trains have to wait for each other to cross in front of each other, back out, reverse course, etc. as highlighted in this video:
I do very much think the idea of an east side commuter rail station on 31st street is a great idea, though it makes a lot more sense if it was part of a through-running scheme where LIRR trains and NJT trains both provide service to it so that you effectively have rapid transit that goes from Secaucus Junction to Penn Station to this new east side station to Long Island City which all either have a massive number of potential transfers are located near major employment centers (and Secaucus Junction and the area around the LIC station should be densely built as such). Given the usage that the 42nd street shuttle has (along with the 7 train also serving that segment), it seems like having another crosstown rapid transit service in the 30s would be greatly useful.
Of course, the total funding for even the most basic needed component (the second set of Hudson River tunnels) haven't been found yet, but this plan along with the current East Side Access and the plans for the subsequent Penn Station Access, along with expanding Hudson Line Metro-North services across the new Tappan Zee to serve the western bank of the Hudson River and a smarter shared fare structure and RFID card might ultimately make a first crack at a NYC S-Bahn/RER/Crossrail possible.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 09-16-2017 at 08:51 AM..
MSG isn't going anywhere, even Cuomo has stopped pushing that idea. Mayor and CC may still think they can force the Dolans, but those phishers don't know who they are dealing with.
Even with eminent domain it would be hugely expensive to acquire the land for a "Penn Station South". More so since that part of Chelsea/Hell's Kitchen has become very trendy and risen in value. Anyone who doubts this just walk up 8th Avenue from FIT (27th Street) towards MSG/Penn Station.
Long story short who is going to pay for all this? NYS and NJ cannot even come up with their portion of the money for Gateway, and that was when it was being half paid by feds under Obama. If His Orangeness changes those plans and wants Amtrak and the two states to pony up more money, then you can kiss the project goodbye.
That boondoggle and gift to Long Islanders known as East Side Access is now projected to cost $10.178 *BILLION*, is way over budget and behind schedule. It may or may not be ready in 2023. It has been under construction since 2007 and is anyone's guess will be done in six years time.
MSG isn't going anywhere, even Cuomo has stopped pushing that idea. Mayor and CC may still think they can force the Dolans, but those phishers don't know who they are dealing with.
Even with eminent domain it would be hugely expensive to acquire the land for a "Penn Station South". More so since that part of Chelsea/Hell's Kitchen has become very trendy and risen in value. Anyone who doubts this just walk up 8th Avenue from FIT (27th Street) towards MSG/Penn Station.
Long story short who is going to pay for all this? NYS and NJ cannot even come up with their portion of the money for Gateway, and that was when it was being half paid by feds under Obama. If His Orangeness changes those plans and wants Amtrak and the two states to pony up more money, then you can kiss the project goodbye.
That boondoggle and gift to Long Islanders known as East Side Access is now projected to cost $10.178 *BILLION*, is way over budget and behind schedule. It may or may not be ready in 2023. It has been under construction since 2007 and is anyone's guess will be done in six years time.
Yes, the gothamist article has someone from another transit think tank arguing that Penn Station South is completely unnecessary. I'm in agreement in terms of through-running making a much bigger difference while being much cheaper.
East Side Access is silly to me for the reason that it's inefficient. The idea of running LIRR trains to Grand Central and the capacity that opens up at Penn Station and on the East River tunnels by making use of the already constructed 63rd street tunnel is sensible. The idea of making a massive cavernous multi-berth lower layer at Grand Central is not efficient though. Instead, the money should have been ponied up to fit a set of tracks in Grand Central to be through-running and tunnels to be burrowed down Manhattan to lower Manhattan and then under the East River to Brooklyn to meet up with the Atlantic Terminal tracks with a few stations along the way. A set of through-running tracks would have had the same capacity as the terminal berths as their limiting factors are the same (the lower level of the 63rd street tunnels are also two tracks). A through-running operation would have been far simpler in operation and means that a lot of people can go straight to their place of work rather than crowd the already overcrowded subway.
If for some reason there was even more funding and sense, then it would have been four-tracked to 33rd street with one set going to the additional east river tunnels so that Metro-North trains can then cross towards Sunnyside Yards.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 09-18-2017 at 10:13 AM..
Yes, the gothamist article has someone from another transit think tank arguing that Penn Station South is completely unnecessary. I'm in agreement in terms of through-running making a much bigger difference while being much cheaper.
East Side Access is silly to me for the reason that it's inefficient. The idea of running LIRR trains to Grand Central and the capacity that opens up at Penn Station and on the East River tunnels by making use of the already constructed 63rd street tunnel is sensible. The idea of making a massive cavernous multi-berth lower layer at Grand Central is not efficient though. Instead, the money should have been ponied up to fit a set of tracks in Grand Central to be through-running and tunnels to be burrowed down Manhattan to lower Manhattan and then under the East River to Brooklyn to meet up with the Atlantic Terminal tracks with a few stations along the way. A set of through-running tracks would have had the same capacity as the terminal berths as their limiting factors are the same (the lower level of the 63rd street tunnels are also two tracks). A through-running operation would have been far simpler in operation and means that a lot of people can go straight to their place of work rather than crowd the already overcrowded subway.
If for some reason there was even more funding and sense, then it would have been four-tracked to 33rd street with one set going to the additional east river tunnels so that Metro-North trains can then cross towards Sunnyside Yards.
MN trains don't see to go to Sunnyside yards as GCT is just that, a terminal. Yards and shops are under the place and or along side (Lexington, Vanderbilt and Madison). Then of course MN has shops located elsewhere (some are former New York Central IIRC) so that takes care of that. Sending trains out to Sunnyside wouldn't free up much in terms of passenger service since the areas cannot be accessed easily or at all IIRC from ramps.
Amtrak one believes already returned some service to GCT, that is a good thing and never should have been removed in first place.
MN trains don't see to go to Sunnyside yards as GCT is just that, a terminal. Yards and shops are under the place and or along side (Lexington, Vanderbilt and Madison). Then of course MN has shops located elsewhere (some are former New York Central IIRC) so that takes care of that. Sending trains out to Sunnyside wouldn't free up much in terms of passenger service since the areas cannot be accessed easily or at all IIRC from ramps.
Amtrak one believes already returned some service to GCT, that is a good thing and never should have been removed in first place.
Right, I am saying that what makes sense is to no longer have massive terminals with their complicated dance, but instead to build for through-running in the urban core. Paris made its terminals through-running and was able to greatly reap the dividends as it then got to make its interlined commuter rail network into a second rapid transit service (RER). London is doing so now with its massive Crossrail program.
Funnily enough, the horribly inefficient East Side Access plan to bring LIRR to Grand Central is also what might ultimately lead to Metro-North to go through Sunnyside Yards as it'd open up berths at Penn Station and there is a proposed plan for Metro-North to use the Hell's Gate tracks to then run New Haven line trains through that and Sunnyside Yards to get to Penn Station (this already happened occasionally for game day trains to Meadowlands). The difference is that the Penn Station Access plan also proposes additional regular service in the Bronx.
This isn't the best way to do things (I prefer what I wrote), but this might lead to the first RER type service in the system if those MN trains go through Penn Station and then instead of reversing course, they instead went up the Amtrak tracks that head north from Penn Station on the west side of Manhattan as proposed for the the second phase of Penn Station Access though that plan as is does not propose through-running.
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