Traditional Neighborhood Development (Oklahoma City, Norman, Stillwater: middle-class, apartment, lofts)

[Emery'sMommy]

I just recently started reading the book, Suburban Nation: The Rise of Sprawl and the Decline of the American Dream. I'm not completely through it yet, but it has a wealth of information that I believe is a must-read for developers/new homebuilders.
I then found this website with a list of TND communities, Links to TND and New Urban Neighborhoods.

I'm wondering why Oklahoma City hasn't begun building similar developments yet? I think the townhomes/lofts in deep duece are a great start, but there's not much integration of retail/essentials yet. I don't understand why we've yet to see a true mixed-zone development surface here, with shops on the street level and condos above. I know they're in the plans for Core to Shore, but what about other areas of the city? Midtown or *gasp*, the suburbs?!
Take Orenco Station, in Hillsboro, Oregon for example. It's in the middle of suburbia but thriving because of it's design. Plus it's affordable for the middle class buyer. Orenco Station in Hillsboro, Oregon : UnSprawl Case Study : Terrain.org

Plum Creek in Kyle Tx, may be an even better example Plum Creek - The Vision. It is still very much a suburban development, yet they've made a point to integrate bike trails, elementary schools, recreational facilities within the neighborhood, not to mention implementing traditionally designed homes, with large front porches and an alley/garage in the back of the house. If you're willing to walk 10 minutes, retail is within reach as well.
I'm not sure how thriving this neighborhood is b/c of Austin's traffic situation but I think one of these would do well in Okc since the commute to and from the suburbs isn't a burden (yet).

It seems like families in Okc don't have much a choice when it comes to housing. You can keep your kids "safe" in a subdivision but spend your life on the road, driving them to and from their activities. Or you can take a risk and move into the city, with a sad public school system, higher crime, and still not much walk-ability.

Perhaps, I'm living in the wrong city, but I feel like OKC has to change their mindset on development and look towards the past, instead of modeling after Dallas and building farther and farther out, devouring farmland.

[ou_norman]

There are many people trying to do exactly this. Even the neighborhoods you mentioned are trying to incorporate retail, residential, and office space in the same developments. A large new European-style apartment building just broke ground in Deep Deuce which will have neighborhood retail at its ground level, as well as the upcoming Aloft hotel across the street from that which will also have retail. The Paseo, Plaza, and Western Avenue areas are all rehabilitated traditional neighborhoods. Chesapeake is keeping secrets about the enormous area it owns around its campus which will likely be developed soon with residential/retail components. So, you're right- if you're willing to take a chance on the city then you are able to be a pioneer and support these traditional neighborhood type developments.

As far as suburbs are concerned, a huge part of central Norman is a thriving traditional neighborhood, with two pretty significant commercial areas (Downtown and Campus Corner) where lofts are available and a lot of diverse housing is within walking and biking distance. I would say central Norman is the best traditional neighborhood in the state.

I think we are going to have a huge problem all over the country when people realize how much more attractive TNDs are for making a community that actually improves your lifestyle, but these options don't exist. There are few people in my generation (the millennial generation) that are going to want to live in a typical suburban neighborhood, so I fear that the suburbs are going to become the new abandoned decrepit places a few decades down the road if we don't do something to rehab them.

There is another interesting new book called "The Sprawl Repair Manual" that has some interesting ideas about how to rehabilitate the areas we've already messed up.

[Emery'sMommy]

Originally Posted by ou_norman

I think we are going to have a huge problem all over the country when people realize how much more attractive TNDs are for making a community that actually improves your lifestyle, but these options don't exist. There are few people in my generation (the millennial generation) that are going to want to live in a typical suburban neighborhood, so I fear that the suburbs are going to become the new abandoned decrepit places a few decades down the road if we don't do something to rehab them.

I couldn't agree more. I believe in the theory of peak oil and as gas prices continue to rise, the suburbs will suffer greatly if their infrastructures don't begin to change. I wish the major homebuilders here would "see the light" and begin to design homes with less of a front yard, large porches, and rear garages. Not to mention more trails and common community space. When the essentials start becoming too expensive for the middle class, we are going to have to rely on our communities to survive. I really don't feel much sense of community in my suburban neighborhood b/c these homes are built for cars...the only time I see my neighbors are when they are getting in and out of their vehicles, grabbing the mail, and in the summer, mowing their lawns.

Anyways, thanks for the additional info on what's planned for the areas mentioned- I didn't realize Norman was such a great town, with a traditional neighborhood structure in their core. Will definitely keep it on my list when it comes time to buy our long-term house in 5 yrs or so from now. I'm really hoping the plaza district and 23rd street continue to improve. I can see many former suburbanite families choosing to settle there in the future.

Just gotta practice patience and know that change takes time...

[ou_norman]

Yep, I think those inner city areas can do nothing but improve over the next few years, and hopefully families will come back to the city. I really believe that mixing middle-class families back in to inner city public school systems is the only way that education will ever improve- hopefully with the mixture of families flooding back into the inner city and brand new or renovated public schools in OKC could charge something of a resurgence for OKC education. The only thing is, it's very scary to be a pioneer and take that plunge, so we have to have a big wave of people.

If you haven't really explored and love traditional neighborhoods, you should definitely visit Norman and look around when a nice spring day comes along! Just looking on Google Maps you will see that the area from Acres and Berry to all the way down to Lindsey and Classen is made up of gridded streets, historic residential areas that resemble Edgemere or Jefferson Park in OKC, and urban commercial districts with multistory buildings that come to the right to the sidewalks. Of course, the University is in this area and also a very urban concept, with 4000 freshmen and probably 1000 Greek students living in towers and houses right on campus, plus 20,000 more students (plus faculty) who either walk, bike, drive, or take CART to campus. So it is possible be away from the big city but also be in a great, walkable, historic, up and coming neighborhood in the metro! Here are some pictures of Norman.

This is an aerial of the campus corner area, with a mixture of retail, apartment houses, and single family homes

[Emery'sMommy]

Great pictures! I've been exploring on google maps and noticed the new bike/pedestrian trail- very cool! I would love to bike with my kids to school, to pick up something small for dinner, etc. and it's impossible to do that in the suburbs. I've always thought Norman had a great downtown but honestly don't head down there much. We live about 5 mins away from Hob Lob Corp, where my husband works and 10 mins from both of our families so it's hard for him to see past living in Mustang...but I'm slowly dropping hints that I want to live in the city eventually and hopefully by the time we're ready to sell this house, Okps, especially the middle and high schools, will improve even more.

[Emery'sMommy]

Just saw on another forum that there are plans for a mixed-use development near Piedmont, just north of surrey hills off of NW Exp. Here's the website describing it: Village Verde Oklahoma City

I'm really interested to see what comes of this, although it's still very much suburban, I think it's a start in the right direction. I hate that it's out in the middle of nowhere but maybe if this community is successful, other developers in the suburbs will follow in their footsteps and have some infill of mixed use projects.

[ou_norman]

^^ Yes, that is pretty close to suburban TND, I guess. Depending on their treatment of surface parking etc, and how truly committed they are to the mix of housing styles/prices, it could be a nice development. On the master plan though, it looks like all the residential space is large-lot freestanding homes.

[Emery'sMommy]

Originally Posted by ou_norman

^^ Yes, that is pretty close to suburban TND, I guess. Depending on their treatment of surface parking etc, and how truly committed they are to the mix of housing styles/prices, it could be a nice development. On the master plan though, it looks like all the residential space is large-lot freestanding homes.

I know, looking at the master plan I was hmmm ok, this looks like any other neighborhood with retail along nw exp. Hopefully they will go with the main street approach on nw exp and place some parking behind the buildings instead of upfront.
On regards to housing styles though, this page lists the types they will include in the community: Village Verde Oklahoma City
The live/work ones look really promising.

[ou_norman]

Wow if they build units like that it would be very surprising! Cool.

[StillwaterTownie]

The area between OSU and downtown Stillwater has some interesting urban characteristics.