I'm So Tired Of Hearing About How Awful Today's Kids Are (BF, autism)

[Momma_bear]

Originally Posted by somebodynew

Maybe I misread you. That is what it looked like. My bad.

How did you come to that conclusion?

[somebodynew]

I mistook you for a different poster and incorrectly attributed her words to you. I apologize.

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by somebodynew

I agree. But what constitutes "ready" is often misjudged by fearful grown ups, in my opinion.

Or misjudged by immature children, anxious to pretend at being adults, and, in some cases, easily taken advantage of.

Originally Posted by somebodynew

Wait I just re-read that. What do you mean by a "life event"? Honestly, I don't think sex is the Big Fat Hairy deal society seems to think it is. Many Europeans manage to have casual, fun, friendly sex without devolving into psychosis.

I even think viewing sex in less of a Big Deal kind of way is a healthy way to approach long term monogamous relationship. How can one know if one is going to be sexually compatible with someone for LIFE if they have no sexual experience whatsoever? You can tell I am not even a little bit of an advocate of abstinence until marriage.

I think you're making a number of assumptions that are, at best, erroneous. Or perhaps you're not, and are using my post as a springboard for a tangent? Let's assume the best and go with that one.

I'm not advocating that young men and women wait until marriage before having sex. At best, all that does is contribute to early marriage, which I don't see as particularly useful. Nor am I suggesting celibacy until age forty.
OTOH, neither do I think young adolescence is a good time to initiate sexual relationships. Stereotypes of hedonistic young Frenchmen aside, people in their young- and mid-teens are still figuring out their own identities, their own places in the world, and the trajectories they'd like their lives to take. Complicating this by behaviors more appropriate to adults-- be it sex, babies, fulltime jobs, or one's own line of credit-- is not something I will ever endorse. The average individual will be a grownup for a very long time. There's no advantage to rushing it.

What do we fear sexuality will DO to our kids? The big ones are obvious. Pregnancy and STIs. Both of these are easily preventable with education.

Well, no, actually. That's incorrect.

Now I will grant you that no means is 100% effective against STI transmission except abstinence. And this is a really important point for a teenager to understand.

Oh, okay. So now it's not education, it's abstinence. That's a little better. Because one can be educated and still take risks, or take what seems to be a relatively risk-free chance and be on the losing end of statistics.

I have been sexually active from quite a young age. In my experience, the ONLY downside to young sexual activity is the judgement from your parents and other authority figures. Sure I got my feelings hurt a couple of times. That is going to happen in the boy / girl growing up thing. And is not even a bad thing. It serves to teach.

Okay, see, IME, there can be a lot of downsides, some social, some psychological, and some medical. What we have, between your experience and mine, is anecdote, rather than data, and which basically is worth the pixels killed in the expression of our conflicting opinions.

What my experience has shown me is children who are parents at fourteen, boys who learn not to trust women (but not until after he discovers that when girls say "I'm on the pill" it doesn't necessarily mean "regularly", or even which pill), kids who have become suicidal after breakups, kids who think it's okay to take advantage of others' ambivalence. And yes, education can help prevent some of that, but it doesn't prevent everything any more than good math teachers prevent bounced checks. DO I think every kid who has sex at thirteen or fifteen is going to end up on the AIDS ward or the maternity ward? No. Do I think most will? Probably not, though there are plenty of other things that can be passed asymptomatically (and even with a condom) that I don't think I'd want, either. Do I think it's a jolly idea to engage in an emotionally intimate relationship when fully developed judgment is not present, and hope that any negatives are merely transitory? Nope.

And that's where I am with it with my kids. They may listen, they may not, but as the grown-up in the scenario, my job is to provide guidance along with facts. You're welcome to call it judgment, if you like. It's still my job.

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by somebodynew

By the time they are in high school, you are no longer the arbiter of appropriate. If you have not done the job of instilling some sense into them by now, you are hosed. If you micromanage your child, you will have three outcomes
- mamma's wuss
- rebel
- underground deceiver

Yes, of course. Those are the only possible outcomes, and what lovely terminology.

The very JOB of this age is to start become their own person, to separate from you.

Deny biology if you like. At what price?



My 8 and 10 year old already understand pregnancy. Why a high school student doesn't I cannot imagine. If we worried less about the "message" we sent when we educated them, then we would not be faced with ignorant teens.

Yes, high school kids have the invincible complex. As parents we have to understand that in the context of the fact that they are starting to identify as romantic and sexual beings. They are not going to learn how to be those things by playing matchbox cars. They are going to learn by trying to do, as they learned how to use their legs as babies by trying to walk.

Oh, okay. So you don't actually have children who are the age we're discussing.
The piece you're missing is that it isn't about "understanding pregnancy". It's about being able to hold onto that understanding when Joey from Algebra 2 has his hand up your shirt. That's where maturity kicks in...or doesn't.

As for denying biology...our very society denies biology all the time. It's called civilization. (Or deodorant.)

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by somebodynew

I wasn't trying to be. As you point out, I don't have teens. I could be completely full of garbage. I remember my teen years. Mom dictating what was and wasn't appropriate was roundly ignored.

But if by and large, you engendered trust when they were kids, you get trust when they are teens.

That said, teen age is the beginning of their sexuality. People of all ages learn by doing, and they have a powerful motive to do, millions of years of biology. They don't know, they don't have the experience is not a compelling argument for me. We learned to walk by using our legs. We learn to build by using our hands. The passage of time does not teach. Experience teaches.

Experience is not the only teacher. Observation, oral transmission, and written transmission are also excellent teachers, and a wise person relies on more than one mode. He who learns from others saves the time, energy and pain of making his own mistakes. For example, I don't have to repeatedly ram my head into a wall to understand that it would be painful, unhealthy, and make me look like an ass.

Yah the big bad stuff is hard to miss; jail, theft... But there is PLENTY, interestingly enough mostly sexual with a teeny spattering of mild drug use, that my Mom knows absolutely nothing about. Now that I am older, I hope she never finds out. She would be horrified. Still and all maybe she wouldn't as I did not turn out TOO god awful.

You assume she knows nothing about it. Perhaps she doesn't. She is not All Parents, Everywhere.
As for me, there are things that transpired during my daughters' adolescence that I officially did not know, because it simply was not the hill I chose to die on. There may be things I was not aware of. That doesn't mean deception. It may simply be decorum.

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by somebodynew

Of course not. But what control do you expect and, more importantly, why. Why are American parents seemingly so afraid of sex?

Rather a broad brush, don't you think? While we're at it, shall we ask why Arab parents are okay with their sons blowing themselves up, or why Europeans smell bad?

Negative stereotypes rarely are accurate, nor do they serve anyone well.

[somebodynew]

Originally Posted by Aconite

I think you're making a number of assumptions that are, at best, erroneous. Or perhaps you're not, and are using my post as a springboard for a tangent? Let's assume the best and go with that one.

The best? Am I being accused of some ill intent?

I'm not advocating that young men and women wait until marriage before having sex. At best, all that does is contribute to early marriage, which I don't see as particularly useful. Nor am I suggesting celibacy until age forty.
OTOH, neither do I think young adolescence is a good time to initiate sexual relationships.

I may or may not agree with you. It depends by what you mean by "young adolescence" and what you mean by "sexual relationship".

I think what young people can emotionally and physically safely do develops over time.

Stereotypes of hedonistic young Frenchmen aside, people in their young- and mid-teens are still figuring out their own identities, their own places in the world, and the trajectories they'd like their lives to take. Complicating this by behaviors more appropriate to adults-- be it sex, babies, fulltime jobs, or one's own line of credit-- is not something I will ever endorse.

The average individual will be a grownup for a very long time. There's no advantage to rushing it.

I don't think I am suggesting rushing anything.

Oh, okay. So now it's not education, it's abstinence.

No that's education from which they can choose abstinence or to risk.

That's a little better. Because one can be educated and still take risks, or take what seems to be a relatively risk-free chance and be on the losing end of statistics.

I am not sure what you mean by this. Statistically it is pretty easy to prevent pregnancy and STI transmission. If the teenager requires 100% risk free, then of course you are right, abstinence is the only choice.

Okay, see, IME, there can be a lot of downsides, some social, some psychological, and some medical.

Like what? We let teenagers drive cars. How else are they going to learn to drive cars? Life has risks. Life IS one big risk. We mitigate as best we can. I tell you I am way more afraid of the risks of driving than I am about a measured exploration of sexuality.

There are emotional risks to everything but somehow the emotional risks of romance and sexuality are scarier for people. I don't get that.

What we have, between your experience and mine, is anecdote, rather than data, and which basically is worth the pixels killed in the expression of our conflicting opinions.

Sure. Are we not enjoying the exchange in thoughts? I certainly am. I suppose you can get off the ride any time you like!

Cheers.

What my experience has shown me is children who are parents at fourteen, boys who learn not to trust women (but not until after he discovers that when girls say "I'm on the pill" it doesn't necessarily mean "regularly", or even which pill), kids who have become suicidal after breakups, kids who think it's okay to take advantage of others' ambivalence. And yes, education can help prevent some of that, but it doesn't prevent everything any more than good math teachers prevent bounced checks. DO I think every kid who has sex at thirteen or fifteen is going to end up on the AIDS ward or the maternity ward? No. Do I think most will? Probably not, though there are plenty of other things that can be passed asymptomatically (and even with a condom) that I don't think I'd want, either. Do I think it's a jolly idea to engage in an emotionally intimate relationship when fully developed judgment is not present, and hope that any negatives are merely transitory? Nope.

And that's where I am with it with my kids. They may listen, they may not, but as the grown-up in the scenario, my job is to provide guidance along with facts. You're welcome to call it judgment, if you like. It's still my job.[/quote]

[somebodynew]

Originally Posted by Aconite

Rather a broad brush, don't you think? While we're at it, shall we ask why Arab parents are okay with their sons blowing themselves up, or why Europeans smell bad?

Well I suppose it might be. But it seems to me that there may be some historical basis for it. As I recall the very beginnings of the non native Americans (depending on how far back in history you go) were European settlers who were persecuted for their religion. Their religion happened to be reformist. Their religion was very sexually restrictive. I think there is a decent chance that that has had a profound affect on the social development of this country.

So wait, if Americans are European settlers, wouldn't we stink too?

Negative stereotypes rarely are accurate, nor do they serve anyone well.

What is negative stereotyping about that statement?

[somebodynew]

Originally Posted by Aconite

Experience is not the only teacher. Observation, oral transmission, and written transmission are also excellent teachers, and a wise person relies on more than one mode.

I just plain don't agree with this. Those other "teachers" are merely inputs to experience. You cannot teach someone to walk without the experience of walking. You cannot teach someone to talk without the experience of talking. You cannot teach someone to read without the experience of reading. What you have after conversation is background to apply to your experience.

(Except for observation which I would call a limited form of experience.)

You assume she knows nothing about it. Perhaps she doesn't. She is not All Parents, Everywhere.

No I am not. I am suggesting an other thought based on my experience. What gets your kickers in such a twist? Did I **** you off in another life?

As for me, there are things that transpired during my daughters' adolescence that I officially did not know, because it simply was not the hill I chose to die on. There may be things I was not aware of. That doesn't mean deception. It may simply be decorum.

Maybe. We will never know. Rather my point.

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by somebodynew

I may or may not agree with you. It depends by what you mean by "young adolescence" and what you mean by "sexual relationship".

"Young adolescence" would be to middle and early high school. I was using it as a parallel to your equally nebulous "quite a young age".

I think what young people can emotionally and physically safely do develops over time.

Well, yes. That would be the point in not thinking sex is dandy for the local eighth-graders.

I don't think I am suggesting rushing anything.

No? It sure sounded like it here: I have been sexually active from quite a young age. In my experience, the ONLY downside to young sexual activity is the judgement from your parents and other authority figures. Sure I got my feelings hurt a couple of times. That is going to happen in the boy / girl growing up thing. And is not even a bad thing. It serves to teach.

I am not sure what you mean by this. Statistically it is pretty easy to prevent pregnancy and STI transmission. If the teenager requires 100% risk free, then of course you are right, abstinence is the only choice.

No. It is pretty easy (assuming availability) to reduce the likelihood of pregnancy or STDs. Prevent altogether? No. Not and actually have sex at the same time, anyway.

Like what? We let teenagers drive cars.

Assuming for a moment that I think automatically handing a sixteen-year-old the keys is a good idea, which I'm at best ambivalent about, that still leaves out the thirteen-to-fifteen crowd.

How else are they going to learn to drive cars? Life has risks. Life IS one big risk. We mitigate as best we can. I tell you I am way more afraid of the risks of driving than I am about a measured exploration of sexuality.

There are emotional risks to everything but somehow the emotional risks of romance and sexuality are scarier for people. I don't get that.

Opinion. More talked about, perhaps. Sex sells magazines, after all. And, once again, there are other ways to learn besides (metaphorically) diving into the deep end. Even Driver's Ed doesn't stick you in rush hour traffic on Route 2 your first day.