Mom whose child died is now advocate for vaccines (friend, health, kids)
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Is that a feeling you have or do you have any actual science to back that up?
Because your presentation of the immune system is just as flawed as hers. The reality there is little to no difference for timing of immunization and both cdc and who offer their recommendations in ranges (which btw are not identical). Spreading out immunization within those ranges does nothing dangerous medical wise, talking about "repeated bombardment" is as much hooey as the antivax propaganda.
Just about 6,000,000 google hits....and if you understood the immune system....
If the mom is going in every 4 weeks for vaccines for 3 years, that is challenging the immune system and because it's fighting these diseases during that time, it weakens the response to other attacks...it's pretty basic actually....
Just about 6,000,000 google hits....and if you understood the immune system....
If the mom is going in every 4 weeks for vaccines for 3 years, that is challenging the immune system and because it's fighting these diseases during that time, it weakens the response to other attacks...it's pretty basic actually....
I see. So show me an actual scientific article about that hmmm?
Google scholar, give it a shot
Because I have had more than my fair share of undergrad and graduate classes in immunology, and ethe evolution of the immune system and that is NOT how it works.
If we want to oversimplify one of the most complex pieces of evolution on the planet, it is much more a "use it or lose it" situation. Unless someone is immune compromised, having an increased immune response makes them less likely to get an infection. Once you get the complement system up and running, it is more effective NOT LESS. This is why when secondary infection after illness does occur, it is usually AFTER initial response and is almost always a different type of infection (i.e. bacterial after viral).
There is no evidence to suggest that spacing vaccines (which by the way is still with in the WHO guidelines) or even multiple exposures to any common pathogen is going to elicit some sort of immunodeficiency. If anything the logic says there maybe some small chance of triggering autoimmune, but even that has been discounted.
Look if you are going to use "science", then use it correctly and do not make things up or overstate. You have made things up, which btw, is what is so unacceptable in the anti-vax propaganda. Stop it, your just giving them fodder to talk about the lies people who are pro-vax tell.
I see. So show me an actual scientific article about that hmmm?
Google scholar, give it a shot
Because I have had more than my fair share of undergrad and graduate classes in immunology, and ethe evolution of the immune system and that is NOT how it works.
If we want to oversimplify one of the most complex pieces of evolution on the planet, it is much more a "use it or lose it" situation. Unless someone is immune compromised, having an increased immune response makes them less likely to get an infection. Once you get the complement system up and running, it is more effective NOT LESS. This is why when secondary infection after illness does occur, it is usually AFTER initial response and is almost always a different type of infection (i.e. bacterial after viral).
There is no evidence to suggest that spacing vaccines (which by the way is still with in the WHO guidelines) or even multiple exposures to any common pathogen is going to elicit some sort of immunodeficiency. If anything the logic says there maybe some small chance of triggering autoimmune, but even that has been discounted.
Look if you are going to use "science", then use it correctly and do not make things up or overstate. You have made things up, which btw, is what is so unacceptable in the anti-vax propaganda. Stop it, your just giving them fodder to talk about the lies people who are pro-vax tell.
Spacing--as talked about by the WHO does not mean going in every 4 weeks for 3 years....you are seriously going to say that is a good idea...getting a vaccine every 4 weeks for 3 years....
Spacing--as talked about by the WHO does not mean going in every 4 weeks for 3 years....you are seriously going to say that is a good idea...getting a vaccine every 4 weeks for 3 years....
As long as they occur within the appropriate ranges it doesn't matter.
Look if you really want to get into B cell and T cell response and want to go thru and differentiate between primary and secondary immune response by vaccine I am game.
See the thing is, the reason why hcps are allowing spaced out vaccinations is that aside from the handful of legitimate concerns nana and Katrina posted, it's not that big a deal.
And one thing is absolutely certain, there is nothing that is going to "overwhelm the system". That is made up.
If you are going to make things up using "science" you are as bad as the propagandists.
As long as they occur within the appropriate ranges it doesn't matter.
Look if you really want to get into B cell and T cell response and want to go thru and differentiate between primary and secondary immune response by vaccine I am game.
See the thing is, the reason why hcps are allowing spaced out vaccinations is that aside from the handful of legitimate concerns nana and Katrina posted, it's not that big a deal.
And one thing is absolutely certain, there is nothing that is going to "overwhelm the system". That is made up.
If you are going to make things up using "science" you are as bad as the propagandists.
Ok, then explain the issues with some of the flu viruses that have surfaced that do exactly that--put the immune system into overdrive in healthy people which leads to their death..or is that propaganda too???
and again---every few weeks for 3 years is a good idea???? Where is your research that supports that?
This thread perfectly underlies the problem - any time the issue is raised, people on both sides immediately get argumentative. Pro-vaxxers start spewing facts and data as if anti-vaxxers are idiots, and anti-vaxxers get political and defensive, if not also spew innumerable anecdotes and data from less mainstream sources.
We were somewhat anti-vax when our oldest was born. I did not for a moment think vaccines would cause autism, but as someone who researches EVERYTHING before I do it, I was not at all comfortable with the "Just Get Them, You Idiot" approach that most pro-vax sources took. I knew vaccines prevented many horrible diseases, but I didn't like that so many were given at once. I knew research had been done about each individual vaccine's efficacy and safety, but I didn't like that the recommendation to give six at a time was so brand new that not one child that's had them done like that has yet to reach adulthood to see what the long-term effects might be. I didn't want my child to suffer preventable diseases, but I also didn't want his immune system to suffer in the long run from not being exposed to certain low-level antibodies. The fact that doctors and the CDC approved of a certain schedule didn't carry extra weight for us because thalidomide, twilight sleep, and all sorts of other horrible practices were also approved and common at one point - they didn't carry NO weight either, because they are experts, but I don't take anyone's word for anything without backup. I didn't want to contribute to the superbug phenomenon either by wiping out the minor things - I did care about the other people on this planet, too, so the rumors that anti-vaxers are selfish comes from pro-vax refusal to actually LISTEN to why anti-vaxxers don't want to vax.
All that being said, we chose to simply space out our vaccines and go in every 2-4 weeks for the first year to get one or two at a time so that he would have everything he needed without overloading his system. We decided to hold off on Hep B and Polio until he got a little older since we weren't planning any trips to the Far East and weren't planning on him becoming sexually active as a toddler. We held out on chicken pox for a couple of years until more research was released, and finally got that one, too. In the end, we're all caught up by the age of 3 and a half, though we originally thought that we would be refusing most.
The point is: our particular choices aren't really the point, it's that the pro-vaccine people were so self-righteous in their approach that we felt the only people we could talk to about it were anti-vaccine people. We didn't trust their paranoid rhetoric either, so we were left to sort of flounder on our own. We're fine with the path we chose, but if everyone could actually try to have a dialogue about people's fears and actually address those, rather than their assumptions about what those fears must be, we'd probably get a whole lot more people vaccinating.
This is a perfect example of what happens when medical decisions are based on faulty and incomplete information.
In your case, it is the assumption that combination vaccines have not been studied in combination, which is not true. In order to be licensed, the combination vaccines must be tested to assure that they will work together.
You also do not understand that vaccines are monitored for safety in an ongoing fashion, what is termed post-marketing surveillance. That is the way rare complications are picked up. Such surveillance can mean monitoring a small cohort of people over a long time or millions of people over a much shorter time. Since millions of doses of childhood vaccines are administered, adverse reactions should become apparent rather quickly.
As has been pointed out, the idea of "overloading" the immune system is a myth. It just does not happen.
Vaccines require a healthy immune system to work. A child's immune system is not going to "suffer in the long run from not being exposed to certain low-level antibodies." Antibodies to what? The immune system makes antibodies. That's what it does.
Giving a vaccine will not contribute to the "super-bug" problem. If anything, by reducing the need for antibiotics vaccines actually reduce the opportunity for bacteria to develop resistance. That even includes vaccines against viruses, since people with viral illnesses commonly get superimposed bacterial infections.
Also, it is puzzling that new vaccines are treated with such suspicion. The biology behind new vaccines is the same as the biology behind old vaccines. If anything the actual technology used to produce vaccines now is many times better than what was available just thirty years ago.
The reason that doctors who advise parents to vaccinate their children seem "self righteous" to you is because they are frustrated and tired of trying to explain to parents why their internet "research" is so terribly flawed.
BTW, our FDA did not approve Thalidomide for use among pregnant women. That happened in some countries overseas. Our FDA, in fact, prevented the drug from being put on the market here and the commissioner of the FDA, Frances Kelsey, received the Presidential Medal of Freedom later for her efforts.
Just a small nit to pick. Dr. Kelsey was not commissioner of the FDA, just one of a small staff that reviewed new drug applications. She held her ground under pressure.
Yep. Dr. Sears created his method in response to patients who were fearful. He does, otoh, encourage his patients to get vaccinated on the CDC schedule.
Here is Dr. Paul Offit's take on the Dr. Sears and on his book.
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