Republicans survive Recall effort in WI, what will happen in PA, PGH? (Media: employment, college)

[UKyank]

Originally Posted by SammyKhalifa

I'm not in a union or particularly pro-union, but how do your enjoy your 8-hour workday, or your unlocked emergency exits? Do you think asking for those things is just begging to have your employer hire a private army to come to your town to bust heads? Yeah, I'm sure the Carnegies and Fricks of the world would have gotten around to fixing things up eventually. The history of unions in this city goes back way before the 1970s or 80s. Like any other institution it has its good and bad, of course. I'd say on the whole they've helped the people of this city more than hurt it.

Obviously things are a lot different now. We're not dealing with the same kinds of issues (thanks to those earlier unions). I don't like everything the current unions represent or ask for; but if people can't see that a teachers union is NOT the reason for the problems today, I'm not sure what to say. It seems more likely to me that actually, the problems of today are just a convenient excuse for people doing what they wanted to do anyhow.

That's why I said the 1970s & 80s.... I fully agree that unions were necessary & worked to get a lot of bad things happening in the workplace changed back in the late 1800s/early 1900s, but their time has passed. Kind of like the NAACP not being very relevant in today's world, but did wonders in the civil rights era. There's a reason the vast majority of workers in the US are not part of a union anymore. Though private unions are a different beast altogether & if people want to join them then it's their perogative & I have no problem with that just as it is the perogative of a private employer to hire strictly non-union workers.
And no a teachers union is not THE problem today, but it is one of many & as they say, save a fee hundred million here & a few hundred million there, it starts to add up to real money.
Finally, if current public unions wouldn't be so obviousely & heavily entrenched in politics or so hardline & nonflexible with demands then maybe they would be looked at in a better light.

ps - I wish I worked 8hr days

[JockoJ]

Originally Posted by SammyKhalifa

I'm not in a union or particularly pro-union, but how do your enjoy your 8-hour workday, or your unlocked emergency exits? Do you think asking for those things is just begging to have your employer hire a private army to come to your town to bust heads? Yeah, I'm sure the Carnegies and Fricks of the world would have gotten around to fixing things up eventually. The history of unions in this city goes back way before the 1970s or 80s. Like any other institution it has its good and bad, of course. I'd say on the whole they've helped the people of this city more than hurt it.

Obviously things are a lot different now. We're not dealing with the same kinds of issues (thanks to those earlier unions). I don't like everything the current unions represent or ask for; but if people can't see that a teachers union is NOT the reason for the problems today, I'm not sure what to say. It seems more likely to me that actually, the problems of today are just a convenient excuse for people doing what they wanted to do anyhow.

Well I for one never work an 8-hour workday (10-12 usually) and don't get paid overtime for it as a salaried worker. Not everything is about "number of hours" worked-it's about getting a job done and done right. And as a matter of fact, if we'd pull back some of the bad union BS (not saying all union is bad, but now, pretty much most is), we'd get some of these construction jobs done a lot faster if we didn't have ridiculous break rules and overtime out the arse.

For one example, road repairs should go on 24/7 with reasonable compensation, reasonable breaks, and multiple shifts. If people don't like working overnight, they should go find another job. Why should TENS OF THOUSANDS be inconvenienced for a few hundred?

Oh and to the original posters point (person who started this thread), since you were so apt to call out the repubs getting recall elections as per the bragging lib New York Times, don't forget to mention there are three DEMOCRATS on the recall chopping block next week in the same state. BOOM

[hnsq]

Originally Posted by creepsinc

A unionized public employee, a Tea Partier, and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table sits a plate of a dozen cookies. The CEO reaches across, takes 11 cookies, looks at the tea partier and says,"Look out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie."

Except that the CEO paid for the ingredients, the oven, and the cookie sheet on which they were baked....

I sincerely hope (for the sake of the economic growth of Pittsburgh) that all unions are disbarred. Artificially inflating wages at the expense of net economic growth is a very shortsighted thing to do.

[ditchdigger]

There's a reason the vast majority of workers in the US are not part of a union anymore.

Because business figured out that they could ship the jobs to the non-union world. It's not because unions, and the ability of workers to bargain collectively, became irrelevant.

Artificially inflating wages at the expense of net economic growth is a very shortsighted thing to do.

And what good is net economic growth if its proceeds go disproportionately to a few?

Except that the CEO paid for the ingredients, the oven, and the cookie sheet on which they were baked....

But--the CEO didn't make the oven, the cookie sheet, or harvest the ingredients. Workers did that, and the CEO is getting the benefit of that work, by others.

I don't think anybody in their right mind would argue that the CEO doesn't deserve some cookies, maybe even a lot of cookies. The problem today is that the CEOs of the world are taking eleven cookies, and leaving only one to be divided among everybody else. That's the place of unions, both then and now--to bargain for something more along the lines of five cookies for the CEO and five for everybody else to share.

[SammyKhalifa]

Originally Posted by UKyank

ps - I wish I worked 8hr days

Haha, good call on the 8 hr days. Also on today's unions being so inflexible (seriously . . . cry me a river about teachers being asked to pay for a whole 1% of their health insurance or whatever it is).

Still I'd say that on the whole I'm glad they're around. I don't see ever being in a union myself. My company's owners are decent enough people and treat everyone okay (the money could be better, but who couldn't say that), and as long as they do that I don't see why one would ever move in. And that might be their value, actually--employers are probably more likely to be that way as long as there are unions out there.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by UKyank

Yea, those manufacturing unions of the 1970s & 80s did wonders for the city

They didn't really hurt it either. Steel production was going to move elsewhere no matter what due to technological changes.

Generally, unions typically can't change fundamental economic dynamics, either for good or ill. Their real effect comes in determining the allocation of income between different stakeholders.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by hnsq

Except that the CEO paid for the ingredients, the oven, and the cookie sheet on which they were baked....

But they didn't mix the ingredients or bake the cookies.

Artificially inflating wages at the expense of net economic growth is a very shortsighted thing to do.

There is very little evidence to suggest unions typically have that effect. In fact, several studies have found that unions help increase productivity.

[hempfield mania]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

But they didn't mix the ingredients or bake the cookies.



There is very little evidence to suggest unions typically have that effect. In fact, several studies have found that unions help increase productivity.

HA HA HA, HA HA HA HA, HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ........

Need to clean coffee off of my monitor now. Thanks for the laugh Brian. Ever think of doing stand-up?

[creepsinc]

Two kinds of people in the world: those who believe in human rights (including those of workers), and tools.

Thank the former for anything good, and the latter for the rest.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by hempfield mania

Thanks for the laugh Brian. Ever think of doing stand-up?

I aim to please. For your continued amusement, here's a broad review of the literature:

The Impact of U.S. Unions On Productivity: A Bootstrap Meta-Analysis

Another look involving international comparisons:

Summer Rerun: Debunking the Notion that Unions Hurt Productivity « naked capitalism

Another interesting commentary:

EzraKlein Archive

As Klein points out, whereas there is little evidence that unions harm productivity, and may well increase it on average, there is a lot of evidence that unions increase the worker share of corporate income, thereby reducing the return to corporate owners. But because corporate owners are not usually sympathetic figures, they have an incentive to promote the notion that unions harm productivity, even if there is no real evidence to support that claim.