Admission to Pittsburgh's charters and magnets becomes more difficult... (McDonald: teaching jobs, private schools)

[Moby Hick]

Originally Posted by Hopes

Probably because those parents earn less money, don't make a fuss, and aren't leaving the city.

I don't know how you'd tell that more people that usual were leaving the city, but fusses were certainly made.

[Lobick]

Originally Posted by Hopes

It must have been bad if families were leaving and the district switched principals. Wonder why they don't do the same thing at the other elementary schools that have serious discipline problems. Probably because those parents earn less money, don't make a fuss, and aren't leaving the city.

Or the disciplinary problems really aren't that significant and an overreaction to the complaints of certain individuals isn't warranted.

Either scenario is at least as likely.

I'm not sure where you get "families" or that a principal was "removed" for that reason.

I'd proffer that individual kids have bad experiences at every school, even the "best" ones. Again anecdotes aren't evidence. That one family made the decision to remove their child from a particular school isn't particularly significant, except perhaps to people that are predisposed to have a certain opinion.

[Moby Hick]

Originally Posted by Lobick

I'd proffer that individual kids have bad experiences at every school, even the "best" ones.

Sure. I know somebody who refuses to send their kids to Fox Chapel schools after something happened. (I'm not one to pry, so I didn't ask.)

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by Lobick

I'm not sure where you get "families" or that a principal was "removed" for that reason.

Sideblinded's family left for that reason. Moby Hick says he heard the principal was removed for that reason.

Originally Posted by Lobick

I'd proffer that individual kids have bad experiences at every school, even the "best" ones. Again anecdotes aren't evidence. That one family made the decision to remove their child from a particular school isn't particularly significant, except perhaps to people that are predisposed to have a certain opinion.

The anecdotal evidence of Sideblinded and the experienced opinion of Wipikins both trump your inexperienced opinion. I suspect you have a high chance of becoming anecdotal evidence yourself in the future. Wipikins is a strong proponent of city schools, but he said he'd move to the suburbs if magnets, charters, and private schools aren't available. This thread is about magnets and charters becoming more difficult to get into so that means that it's likely that the city will be losing families in the future.

[Lobick]

Originally Posted by Hopes

Sideblinded's family left for that reason. Moby Hick says he heard the principal was removed for that reason.


The anecdotal evidence of Sideblinded and the experienced opinion of Wipikins both trump your inexperienced opinion. I suspect you have a high chance of becoming anecdotal evidence yourself in the future. Wipikins is a strong proponent of city schools, but he said he'd move to the suburbs if magnets, charters, and private schools aren't available. This thread is about magnets and charters becoming more difficult to get into so that means that it's likely that the city will be losing families in the future.

Right...in the battle of anecdotes, you've prevailed.

Fortunately, rational, educated people utilized better metrics in their decision making process. Additionally, all of those metrics suggest the overwhelming probability that the population of the City will continue to increase in the coming decades. In the face of that evidence, to conclude that families will buck the trend and leave the City is largely without support and entirely speculative.

Aside from the fact that there's no indication whatsoever that magnet schools are going anywhere, I see no reasons to suggest that families will begin to flee cities at a greater rate than they have in the last several decades when the overall trends suggest the opposite.

[squarian]

Originally Posted by Hopes

if magnets, charters, and private schools aren't available.

PPS has a long history of endless new-broom changes, so it's just possible at some stage a new superintendent will want to abolish the magnet schools.

But charter and private schools? The private schools are hardly going away - as far as I know the established ones (e.g. Winchester Thurston) are doing well enough and not likely to fold any time soon. And while some charters may conceivably have their charters revoked in future, there's only a very, very slim chance that PA will revoke the law entirely.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by Lobick

Aside from the fact that there's no indication whatsoever that magnet schools are going anywhere...

Originally Posted by squarian

PPS has a long history of endless new-broom changes, so it's just possible at some stage a new superintendent will want to abolish the magnet schools.

But charter and private schools? The private schools are hardly going away - as far as I know the established ones (e.g. Winchester Thurston) are doing well enough and not likely to fold any time soon. And while some charters may conceivably have their charters revoked in future, there's only a very, very slim chance that PA will revoke the law entirely.

I didn't say magnets, charters, and private schools were going away.

The thread is about magnets and charters becoming more difficult to get into.

If you can't get into magnets and charters, they aren't available.

If you can't afford private schools and can't get a scholarship, they aren't available.

[Moby Hick]

Originally Posted by Lobick

Aside from the fact that there's no indication whatsoever that magnet schools are going anywhere, I see no reasons to suggest that families will begin to flee cities at a greater rate than they have in the last several decades when the overall trends suggest the opposite.

I agree with this. There are various problems, but the booming applications to the magnet schools are evidence that things are getting better because people are not fleeing the city (or are coming into to it instead of going some other place). I don't think people are going into these lotteries blindly expecting a slot in their first choice. Parents certainly know there is a chance they won't get it. This is what parents talk about to other parents when their kids are too old to talk about how hard it was to get them to use the toilet. On the whole, those who try for the magnets are either people are happy enough with the system to be willing to go with the feeder school should they not get a magnet or happy enough with Pittsburgh as a place to live that they are willing to spring for private schools if they don't get a magnet they want.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by Moby Hick

I agree with this. There are various problems, but the booming applications to the magnet schools are evidence that things are getting better because people are not fleeing the city (or are coming into to it instead of going some other place).

The answer to "Why is it becoming more difficult to get into magnets and charters?" is key.

Is it because there is a higher student population?

Is it because more and more parents are unhappy with their feeder schools?

Is it because more parents are becoming aware of the magnet and charters even though they're happy with their feeder school?

I'll bet it's a little bit of all three. If the student population is higher because more families are moving into the city for the Pittsburgh Promise and hoping to get into magnets and charters, the city will need to eventually add more magnets and allow more charters. The same applies if more parents are becoming unhappy with feeders unless the district works hard at improving the feeder schools. If the increase in magnet and charter applications are simply because more parents are aware of the programs, that could negatively impact the parents who were relying on magnets and charters for living in the district. It's no secret that many Pittsburgh parents rely on the magnet and charter option when considering Pittsburgh. We get many threads asking about that by newcomers.

[Moby Hick]

Originally Posted by Hopes

The answer to "Why is it becoming more difficult to get into magnets and charters?" is key.

Is it because there is a higher student population?

Is it because more and more parents are unhappy with their feeder schools?

Is it because more parents are becoming aware of the magnet and charters even though they're happy with their feeder school?

I agree that it is probably all three of, but I think that those unhappy with their feeder schools are temporarily elevated because of the closings and the redrawing of the lines required by it. People who would have otherwise never thought about anything but the neighborhood school were confronted with a situations where they couldn't get it or it was a completely different school. Also, I still don't see how it is prohibitively difficult to get into a magnet school. As we did the odds way back in this thread, you stand about 80% odds of getting a kid into one of the three magnet schools in the East End. You can try again next year for some schools. If you have multiple kids, you're odds are better because of sibling preference. If the first one doesn't get in, the second one might and then the other can get in by sibling preference next year.

The charter schools have worse odds, but I think people not in the district are driving those up. Also, I don't know anything about that wasn't in the story. I don't know people who are applying to charters in this district.

I'd also add a number 4. Some of the magnet schools are now good enough (or now talked about enough so that people realize they are good enough) that people who would have otherwise considered only private schools are putting the kids on the list for magnets.