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Old neighbor was an Italian who did not care for Mussolini and defected. Joined the US Army and having good language skills, was assigned to intelligence.
They would bring captured prisoners to him. Told me he always started by asking nicely. He would then beat their brains out (think of the cops in LA Confidential) until they broke.
Did not enjoy it. Was not proud of it. But he collected vital information and saved American and British lives.
"War is Hell" is not just mindless rhetoric.
Which is why we shouldn't be so quick to rush into war. Unfortunately war hungry neocons seem to think war is the only answer.
Old neighbor was an Italian who did not care for Mussolini and defected. Joined the US Army and having good language skills, was assigned to intelligence.
They would bring captured prisoners to him. Told me he always started by asking nicely. He would then beat their brains out (think of the cops in LA Confidential) until they broke.
Did not enjoy it. Was not proud of it. But he collected vital information and saved American and British lives.
"War is Hell" is not just mindless rhetoric.
Is that something you would find perfectly acceptable if done on Americans by the enemies? Or, would it make your blood boil?
If rendition, prison without trial and waterboarding are effective means, perhaps we should incorporate them into our legal system?
But, where do you get the idea that this only came about as a result of waterboarding (something banned since January 2009)?
do some google research....
I have seen it repeated repeatedly. Peter King is on the record about this. we got the intel first from KSM during water boarding. then it was verified by other terroist prisoners being held in rendition.
EG, surely you are nuanced enough to understand the difference between an American citizen who is protected by the constitution and an enemy of the state that is not an American Citizen right?
Franco's Fascist Spain also loved to use torture. Yes, the torture, imprisonment without trial, and even summary executions by military personnel did have Franco's desired effect of making everyone fear Franco but it also had the undesired effect of making loads of folks who previously supported the nationalists to change their minds. Being able to paint the Spanish government is unfair, illegitimate, and down right evil encouraged TONS of people to support terrorist groups they never would have supported otherwise. Most Basques didn't support the ETA until Franco started rounding up random ethnic basques for no other reason then they were in the wrong place at the wrong time so some officer decided to lock them up without charges and have them tortured. These actions turned tons of other wise loyal Basques into ETA supporters or people who decided not to help authorities even when they could have helped (and previously would have helped).
Loads and loads of Algerians truly completely believed the Liberty, Equality, Fraternity stuff from the French Republic and they even believed it when they were told the French Republic endorsed no religion. Tons of Algerians signed up for military service with the French or Free French in WW1, WW2, Vietnam, and even continued supporting France even as the war in Algeria dragged on. What turned this previously loyal Algerians against France was how the right to trial was removed for everyone who was Arab, how public trial and the right to face your accussors was removed if the suspect was an Arab, and especially how the French Army begun to view all Algerians as suspects or as likely criminals instead of as fellow citizens of the Republic.
This is exactly what the terrorists/revolutionaries wanted the French to do during the battle of Algeries. The terrorist or revolutionary wants to provoke the authorities into over reacting or compromising it's core values so the terrorists/rebels can claim terrorism is justified because the authorities are so evil and repressive. Thus suspending normal legal practices or using torture plays into the enemies hands and hurts your cause without doing anything productive to help you. It just give the enemy propaganda to paint your side as evil and encourage moderates to turn against you. Again the responses to the IRA (post time of troubles) or how the Red Brigades were handled are examples of how you successfully defeat terrorist groups in the streets without undermining your own legitimacy (which is what the terrorists are trying to get you to do). In the end even Eastern Block Socialists admitted direct military action via small revolutionary groups committing terrorist acts didn't work. Italians and Germans were collectively horrified by the terrorist acts by the communists and the actions of those governments showed everyone they respected people's rights even as they slowly weeded out the terrorist group's members. It was a real success.
So Rumsfeld himself says waterboarding was not involved (or ever done at Gitmo according to him) but you continue to claim waterboarding was done and it was at Gitmo? You sound like one of the local loonies who still think Saddam was behind 9/11 even after Bush repeatedly said he wasn't. Feel free to live in a fantasy world but please don't call us names when we all laugh at you for believing talking points which your own side has admitted aren't true.
I have seen it repeated repeatedly. Peter King is on the record about this. we got the intel first from KSM during water boarding. then it was verified by other terroist prisoners being held in rendition.
Because Peter King said so... hah!
When was that?
Quote:
EG, surely you are nuanced enough to understand the difference between an American citizen who is protected by the constitution and an enemy of the state that is not an American Citizen right?
Why would you like to maintain the difference? To me, a criminal (with or without a trial) charged with a heinous crime deserves the same treatment if, as you say, the system works.
Anyone on the left who is happy about UBL being dead needs to remember that waterboarding is the thing that got this ball rolling.
and rendition (holding people without trial in places like GITMO) was the second thing that got us to UBL.
those are two things the left seems to abhor (at least on paper)
Then, by God, let's pour our money into it so we can end terrorism! (See how long we last with that strategy)
Oh wait, could it be the government is lying to us? Could it be that they're saying waterboarding was useful so we will curtail our natural disgust of the tactic and stand proudly behind such barbarity? Our enemies are determined by the government and, hey, they don't even qualify as humans anymore!! Couldn't this explain partially why Nazi Germany was able to torture and kill millions without its citizens rising up against it? Let's ALL run toward the cliff!
King is on the homeland security committee but he's also a well known partisan clown. Also King nor the committee has never been briefed on the operation (as the law doesn't require the President to inform Congress until with in 72 hours after military action is taken) so he literally knows nothing the rest of us don't about this operation. He's just repeating the right wing talking point being pushed by Fox and other right wing propaganda outlets that some how Obama shouldn't get any credit (because Bush secretly is responsible), and that torture was/is good or responsible thus justifying Republican support for torture.
Too bad we learned about the couriers from the reporters who were given OBL's tapes not from torturing someone in Gitmo. It was the old fashioned watch who is in contact with a known agent and see if you can't slowly work your way up the chain. It's the same thing the CIA does when it rootes out foreign intelligence groups or when the FBI goes after gangs or the mafia. Years of boring police work done the old fashioned way let's you figure out who is who until you get to the big boss; then you roll the whole group up at once. Torture likely had nothing to do with it other then to confirm what we already knew since physically following the couriers (just like they'd follow KGB agents to their contact and then to their contacts boss, etc...) would get us to OBL much faster then torturing a taxi cab driver who once got hired for a weekend to drive OBL around.
So Rumsfeld himself says waterboarding was not involved (or ever done at Gitmo according to him) but you continue to claim waterboarding was done and it was at Gitmo? You sound like one of the local loonies who still think Saddam was behind 9/11 even after Bush repeatedly said he wasn't. Feel free to live in a fantasy world but please don't call us names when we all laugh at you for believing talking points which your own side has admitted aren't true.
Please turn on any news channel and you will see what I said is true. I am truly embarrassed for you and all demwits. But alas, that is usually the case. Drinkin too much kool-aide is really not good for your health.
And i forgot to add......please do not assume I would ever care what you think about me. got it?
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