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I know that in certain socialized health systems, the government basically dictates the cost of certain procedures and medications and whatnot. They can do it because they have greater bargaining power, that is, the healthcare of their entire country.
Some one always pays for it, that is one of the most idiotic statements I have seen.
You pay out premiums on private insurance, and when you need a scan they pay the hospital...you pay taxes for it, and when you need it they pay the hospital.
this is part of the issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
Your knowledge of the situation is incredibly superficial.
Have you even been to Belgium? It's like 10 Million people. Does 10 Million equal 308 Million? Nope. You might want to educate yourself on a concept called "Economies of Scale."
Just because you can provide cost-effective efficient quality health care for 10 Million people, it does not logically follow that you can provide cost-effective efficient quality health care for 308 Million people.
That's even harder to do with societal attitudes. Europeans go to the doctor to get well, while Americans go to the doctor to feel good.
"Getting well" and "Feeling Good" are not the same thing, and "Feeling Good" costs a helluva lot of money, especially since it is highly subjective and not quantifiable.
You are also either totally ignorant of, or have completely ignored the fact that the European health care model and the US (and British) health care model is not the same thing.
The US (and British) health care model is centered on the hospital. A hospital is the least efficient means of health care delivery.
The Euro-model is centered on specialty clinics.
Huge difference.
I live in a Metropolitan Statistical Area that has 3 Million people in 11 counties in 2 States and one Commonwealth (Kentucky). We have 19 full-service hospitals (23 if you count the ones in Kentucky and Dearborn County Indiana).
Find a European city with 3 Million people that has more than 12 hospitals.
You can't do it. Paris with 3 Million people has 6 hospitals and both Bucharesti and Berlin have 3 Million people have 3 hospitals.
Why? Because they use the Clinic Model.
You cannot use the Clinic Model because Obama's best friend, the American Hospital Association wrote most of the crap in Obamacare and who outlawed doctor-owned anything force the grotesquely inefficient Hospital Model on you.
And even that wouldn't be so bad except the Hospitals are organized as Cartels and they collude and fix prices, which is illegal. And that is a proven fact.
Child-birth around here really only costs $2,300 but the Hospital Cartel charges $9,200 because they collude and fix prices (illegal).
As the Cincinnati Enquirer reported, open-heart surgery really only costs $13,000 but you pay $26,000 to $41,000 because the Hospital Cartel colludes and fixes prices (illegal).
Normally, when you have a business and you have a division that is losing money you either shut it down, spin it off or sell it. Let's say you own the High End Rear End Company and you manufacture hand-crafted pewter butt plugs.
You have the production division, the warehouse division and the distribution division (trucking/cartage). And let's say your distribution division is losing money hand over fist. You have three options: Sell the distribution division to someone else who can operate it at a profit, spin off your distribution into a separate company and see if that can benefit from that, or shut down the distribution and contract owner-operators independently to deliver your products.
Why don't you just raise your prices to cover the losses of your distribution division? You can't because there's an animal called Price Elasticity.
In the world of the Hospital Cartel, they have "divisions" too. They have
Allergy and Immunology, Anesthesiology, Dermatology, Emergency Medicine, Trauma Center, Internal Medicine, Cardiology, Endocrinology, Gastroenterology, Geriatric, Oncology, Hematology, Nephrology, Pulmonary, Rheumatology, Neurology, Neurosurgery, Obstetrics & Gynecology, Ophthalmology, Orthopaedics, Otolaryngology, Pediatrics, Psychiatry, Psychology, Neuro-Psychology, Radiology, Surgery, Sleep Hygiene/Clinic, Vascular, Diet & Weight Loss, Nutrition and Urology (to name a few).
Now, let's say the Diet & Weight Loss Clinic at Jewish Hospital is losing money faster than the US government can spend it. What does the Hospital do? Do the shut it down, sell it or spin it off?
Nope. They just raise the prices and fees for all other services to cover the fact that the Diet & Weight Loss Clinic is a sink-hole.
What about Price Elasticity? Not really valid here. Health care is like water. No matter what the price of water is, you will pay for it because there are few if any substitutes for water.
If you want water to bathe, cook, clean, wash your car, to drink or for other purposes, you're going to pay whatever it costs. Health care is the same way.
So if you want to see health care costs drop 350% to 700% in less than 24 hours, here's all you have to do:
1) Adopt the Sports/Radio Rule: One hospital, and only one hospital per MSA. That means the Sisters of Mercy who own all of the St Francis, St George, Mercy and Bethesda hospitals will have to sell off some of their hospitals, and so will the Sister of Charity who operate Good Samaritans and St Elizabeth hospitals in every major US city, and so will the others.
2) Shut down the Hospital Cartels and start prosecuting for price-fixing and collusion. I would say complain to the FTC, but the AHA owns Obama so the FTC isn't going to do squat, and if push comes to shove, Obama will just stick an AHA member as head of the FTC and that will be the end of that. Or maybe he'll put someone from Monsanto or Cargil there (like we don't have enough already).
3) Repeal that part of Obamacare that bans doctor-owned anything. That is prima facie evidence of price-fixing and collusion, because the AHA blocked competition. From the point of view of the AHA, why should you pay $13,000 for open-heart surgery when you can pay $26,000 to $41,000?
Why do you think kidney dialysis at a clinic is cheaper than that at a hospital? Why do you think the AHA has been trying to outlaw kidney dialysis clinics for the last 10 years? They want you pay through the nose (and kidney) instead of paying Free Market fees and rates.
Do that, and if there are still problems with the costs, and I'm sure there will be because some have this bizarre idea that it should be for free, then start eyeballing the "health insurance" companies. I don't believe the world will end if "health insurance" companies have profits capped at 20% or they are banned.
well said, but even you dont go in to the full depth of the problem, and that is government. the various governments around the country have mandates on what insurance companies are required to pay for, and what doctors and hospitals can charge medicare and medicaid, and VA, and other government run health care systems can charge the government for services, medications, and devices.
on top of that doctors have to practice defensive medicine, and they still get sued frivolously, which drives up their malpractice insurance premiums, which increases their costs, which means they have to charge more. hospitals also get sued frivolously, and thus their insurance premiums go up.
and then there is all the required government paperwork that everyone has to fill out, which means large amounts of administrative staffing which costs money, and that includes the insurance companies as well.
trying to compare the costs of the european health care model and the US model based on what certain procedures cost is a disingenuous comparison without including everything involved in the behind the scenes costs. for instance how many european doctors have to face frivolous lawsuits? how many euro doctors call for unnecessary tests to keep from being sued? the same goes with hospitals. how many european lawyers are getting rich from suing the health care industry for every little thing because their patients are not willing to communicate with their doctor about what side effects their medication is causing?
the cost of health care is high in this country, but it has been driven there by the government, and by people who think that a doctor should cure them without any problems in a couple of days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW
I believe the $3500 difference is profit being extracted by the private owners of the American health care system. Eliminate private ownership of hospitals and health insurance companies and the prices would drop accordingly.
wrong, as you have NO clue to the hidden costs of health care in this country, and you refuse to open your eyes to such costs.
I know that in certain socialized health systems, the government basically dictates the cost of certain procedures and medications and whatnot. They can do it because they have greater bargaining power, that is, the healthcare of their entire country.
Why have ANY cost at all in such a system?
In fact,as the point of such systems is to promote better health,people should be paid to have tests and scans performed....
And you aren't getting screwed when your insurance company along with all of them increase your premium, increase your deductible and decrease your coverage? Which has been happening to people for years, decades.
I can see the flipside benefits to their model. They will never have to worry about not being able to afford treatment, they will never have to worry about insurance denying them treatment or dictating to the doctors what the doctors can do. They will never have to worry about becoming bankrupt from medical bills or having a lifetime of bill collectors hounding them for a amount they could never pay.
They will never have to worry that only the rich will get treatment, because the super rich will never have to worry about a medical bill they can't pay or getting less treatment because they can't pay it. In their model respect for life is not based on how rich someone is.
Doctor~ Mr workingclasshero your daughter has a serious condition
WCH~ can she be treated?
Doctor~ yes treatment is available, with great success rates, but treatment will be on going for a long time
WCH~ how much?
Doctor~ typically around $75,000 a year
WCH~ I make 40k a year, I can't afford that
Doctor~ don't worry insurance will pay for it
WCH~ after I lost my last job I can't get insurance again for my daughter, they say she is too risky
Doctor~ well I guess your daughter is s*** out of luck
WCH~ is there government help?
MONKEYWRENCHING~ government help?, you blood sucker, you want to tax me? for something that should be your responsibilty? life is tough life is hard, but don't take FROM ME!
a few months later (hopefully not)
Doctor~Mr monkeywrench your son has a serious condition...........
And you aren't getting screwed when your insurance company along with all of them increase your premium, increase your deductible and decrease your coverage? Which has been happening to people for years, decades.
I can see the flipside benefits to their model. They will never have to worry about not being able to afford treatment, they will never have to worry about insurance denying them treatment or dictating to the doctors what the doctors can do. They will never have to worry about becoming bankrupt from medical bills or having a lifetime of bill collectors hounding them for a amount they could never pay.
They will never have to worry that only the rich will get treatment, because the super rich will never have to worry about a medical bill they can't pay or getting less treatment because they can't pay it. In their model respect for life is not based on how rich someone is.
Doctor~ Mr workingclasshero your daughter has a serious condition
WCH~ can she be treated?
Doctor~ yes treatment is available, with great success rates, but treatment will be on going for a long time
WCH~ how much?
Doctor~ typically around $75,000 a year
WCH~ I make 40k a year, I can't afford that
Doctor~ don't worry insurance will pay for it
WCH~ after I lost my last job I can't get insurance again for my daughter, they say she is too risky
Doctor~ well I guess your daughter is s*** out of luck
WCH~ is there government help?
MONKEYWRENCHING~ government help?, you blood sucker, you want to tax me? for something that should be your responsibilty? life is tough life is hard, but don't take FROM ME!
I want ALL insurance (private and governmental ) ABOLISHED
I believe in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY
its you health, its your body, its your bill...pay the gosh darn bill
actual costs would be 1/4 if there was no insurance
you do understand that insurance is a SCAM (private or governmental)
if doctors/hospitals give a BILL of 10k.. but accept 3k from insurance or 2k from medicaid..then the ACTUAL cost must be AROUND there....
as to a source...no politicial/ paid whatever is going to ACTUALLY site that anywhere...they would be out of a job
but just look at the OP the pet scan is 25% (1/4) the cost
politicians work to fearmonger and pander...they WANT you to be on insurance (a scam) either private of better yet a liberal controlled governmental system
here is a senario for you
you are healthy you go to the doctor ONCE A YAER for an annual check up...costing about $100.....why would you pay 300 a month for insurance???? if you only go once a year... but the liberals want you to have a costly singlepayer or to mandate that you have insurance....the THIEVES of washington dc at work
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