Are there any conservatives who still believe the stated reason for invading Iraq? (arsenal, Pelosi)

[Dane_in_LA]

Originally Posted by Sunnysee

I have a better question. Are there any libs that know that between inspections that saddam had WMDs moved into Syria, for hiding? That's what I was told by some in the military.

Ah, the Syria rumor. Meaning of course that Bush's war was a strategic failure, not even achieving its most basic objective. Is that really how you want to spin this?

[Visvaldis]

Hans Blix. Anyone remember?

[Dane_in_LA]

RCCCB, you're not making a good case.

#1 Saddam was shooting at planes over the no-fly zone patrolling Iraq.

The no-fly zones (there were two, you know) weren't part of the 1991 armistice agreement and had no UN backing. They were an invention of France, the UK and the US. While I think they were a pretty good idea, nobody denied that the patrol flights were in Iraqi airspace.

#2 Saddam was threatening to attack the neighbors again.

It's the Middle East, everybody's blustering about going at everyone else. The thing is, his army wasn't in shape to take on anyone, and everybody knew it.

#3 Intellegence said they were still fostering a nuke program and they were. Lots of duel use (by design) stuff was found.

The nuclear program wasn't ongoing at all. There were some centrifuge parts found buried in a garden. But please feel free to cite a government source outlining the dual-use technology.

#4 Portable chemical labs found.

Alas, no. The much bally-hooed trailers turned out to be mobile hydrogen-production units for weather balloons, a fairly important thing for artillery units.

#5 Tons of yellow cake found

Not really "found" - the IAEA knew it was there (in Tuwaitha) and it had never been touched. It was under complete control except for a short interim when the invading US Army forgot to guard it. (I am not making this up.) Yellow cake, btw, is not a weapon - it's just chemically processed uranium ore. You can buy the prerequisites online and make a batch in your garage.

#6 Lots of WMD chemicals found that were in separate drums that only needed to be mixed together.

I've heard that often enough, but nobody has ever provided a cite. Do you have a a government source to confirm this?

#7 Children by the hundreds found in jails.

What country would imprison children?

#8 Tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousand were found in mass graves.

#9 Torture devices found throughout the country.

Nobody disputed that Hussein was a genocidal *******, but that has very little to do with the WND debate.

#10 Had eleven months to move other WMD to Syria and elsewhere due to UN delays.

I still marvel at that one. No evidence has appeared and it would make the war an utter strategic failure, yet it's pulled out again and again as a sort of a catch-all. If the WMDs are still out there, the war failed to reach its objective, OK?

[WestCobb]

Originally Posted by Visvaldis

Hans Blix. Anyone remember?

You mean that guy who was responsible for gathering the absolute best and latest ground truth about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? The one who concluded there were none? The one whose intelligence was ignored in favor of kooky cooked up intel that supported the Bush adminstration's desire for war? Yeah, I remember that guy.

[Dane_in_LA]

Originally Posted by Visvaldis

Hans Blix. Anyone remember?

Yup. About the only man who tried to suss out the facts rather than support either side, and who was roundly condemned for doing so.

[Quick Enough]

Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA

Ah, the Syria rumor. Meaning of course that Bush's war was a strategic failure, not even achieving its most basic objective. Is that really how you want to spin this?

Are you sayng the head of the Iraqi Air force is a liar?

He says HE FLEW the stuff to Syria.

[Dane_in_LA]

Originally Posted by Quick Enough

Are you sayng the head of the Iraqi Air force is a liar?

Don't know, because as far as I know, he's never commented on it.

I'm assuming you're talking of General Sada - 2nd in command, and the guy who wrote a book describing how he was approached by pilots who claimed to have flown stuff to Syria. No first-hand account.

He says HE FLEW the stuff to Syria.

I think I may need a cite for that.

[wutitiz]

Originally Posted by WestCobb

The links that I provided were just grabbed to haphazardly to satisfy another poster's desire to play the "show me the source" internet game. I don't put much effort into playing that game because no one analyzes the sources and changes their minds in light of new evidence. They just go grab whatever junk (or sometimes quality) sources they have to "refute" you. You know how that goes. Very few are actually interested in digging down and getting to the truth. (I'm not insinuating that I have "the truth" .. I simply try to be someone who honestly searches for it.)

I have read a lot of sources over the years and watched this really closely. Again, I think Cheney is the smoking gun. I don't exactly exonerate Bush -- but I suspect he was more dupe than mastermind in this case.

I'm not the only one just making chit up, wutitiz, but you're right -- a lot of my thoughts are conjecture. I'd like to see a full-scale investigation into this matter and the guilty parties brought to justice. Lawrence Wilkerson, an aide to Powell and administration insider, would to. He thinks Cheney is a war criminal. He's certainly not the only one to think that.

Might Dick Cheney really be tried for war crimes? - CSMonitor.com

Well that's a fair response--much better than I expected. I guess it's fine to have your suspicions as long as we don't elevate suspicion into fact.

I would note that the CSMonitor piece does not mention anything about cooked intel--it's other stuff. I am just a casual observer here who has read 2 or 3 books. I haven't done a full scale study. I just don't see the evidence against Cheney. What you see as a plot I see as more resulting from the fact that our intel at the time was so poor. The result was that our intel was like a rorchach blob--it was interpreted one way by those who wanted to go to war. Then also we had an excess of partisan infighting in DC at the time, which meant that the interpretations by Cheney & Rummy could in turn be repackaged by their DC enemies as some sort of grand plot.

[Quick Enough]

"#3 Intellegence said they were still fostering a nuke program and they were. Lots of duel use (by design) stuff was found.

The nuclear program wasn't ongoing at all. There were some centrifuge parts found buried in a garden. But please feel free to cite a government source outlining the dual-use technology.

Are you aware of the documents found after the fall of Baghdad that states that Saddam's intent was to re=new his nuclear program AFTER the inspectors left?

From the Deulfer report:
"Many former Iraqi officials close to Saddam
either heard him say or inferred that he intended
to resume WMD programs when sanctions were
lifted. Those around him at the time do not believe
that he made a decision to permanently abandon
WMD programs.Saddam encouraged Iraqi offi cials
to preserve the nation’s scientifi c brain trust essential
for WMD. Saddam told his advisors as early as
1991 that he wanted to keep Iraq’s nuclear scientists
fully employed. This theme of preserving personnel
resources persisted throughout the sanctions period.
• Saddam’s primary concern was retaining a cadre
of skilled scientists to facilitate reconstitution
of WMD programs after sanctions were lifted,
according to former science advisor Ja’far Diya’
Ja’far Hashim. Saddam communicated his policy
in several meetings with offi cials from MIC,
Ministry of Industry and Minerals, and the IAEC
in 1991-1992. Saddam instructed general directors
of Iraqi state establishments and other state entities
to prevent key scientists from the pre-1991 WMD
program from leaving the country. This retention of
scientists was Iraq’s only step taken to prepare for a
resumption of WMD, in Ja’far’s opinion.

http://permanent.access.gpo.gov/DuelferRpt/Volume_1.pdf

[Quick Enough]

Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA

Don't know, because as far as I know, he's never commented on it.

I'm assuming you're talking of General Sada - 2nd in command, and the guy who wrote a book describing how he was approached by pilots who claimed to have flown stuff to Syria. No first-hand account.

I think I may need a cite for that.

You are correct. that is who i am referring to.