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eh... i think you're conflating some unrelated ideas.
On one hand, you do have blue collar union types who expect white collar salaries, and why shouldn't a blue collar union type expect to get a white collar salary. His work isn't as difficult? demanding? physically disabling? His work isn't as important to the country? Someone working in a call center should make more money in his "white" collar, than the guy digging coal and filling his lungs everyday with the filth that will kill him at 50 so you can keep those white collars clean? and they do complain about the middle classTHEY ARE THE MIDDLE CLASS, Cletus!, and they do vote Democrat, and I generally agree that they have unrealistic demands.A living wage? some health insurance? a couple weeks vacation a year? Some sick pay? A pension? Which of these would YOU, Mr Cletus, consider to be an unrealistic demand? Hmmmm? I'm a little disappointed at this post, I thought you knew better.
On the other hand, those of us who DID get college degrees Paid for by whom? Using what type of agency to help with the costs? , and DO work hard,Unlike that high rise worker, walking that steel beam in the heat building the corporate office you will be sitting in your air conditioned cubicle soon?and ARE in the middle class, but haven't yet built up much in the way of assets, are getting screwed big-time by the right wing politicians.of this there is NO DOUBT, at least you know what side to place the blame for these inequities.
The way you're describing the situation, it feels like you're buying into the "right wing propaganda", that it is hard work that creates success. In reality, it is crony capitalism, your proximity to the Federal Reserve and its fractional reserve system, that determines your success. Right-wingers want to ignore the role that private sector debt creation plays in the economy, and how it serves the entrenched status quo. Okay, I'm feeling better.....but you need to rethink your ideas about union and blue collar workers! They work as hard as you do. Not everyone can or is cut out to be a college student. Not everyone has the ability to take the years from good paying jobs due to large responsibilites to get to go to school. You are a lucky man.
Bottom line, our financial system serves the corporate sector, impoverishes the middle class household, and neither left nor right seems to properly understand the problem.
You're not a socialist but unrealistic. To make yourself feel better inside, you spout nice soundbits here on this thread, yet you would never ever move to a neighborhood comprised solely of those that dont have "many of these benefits" as you say. Saying that they need to have things provided to them by a government is the safe play. Does the government not already provide enough for them? If you had grown up in an environment where you were picked on for working hard in school and being smart, and through hard work rose to the upper middle class level , not being born into ityou would understand better. I had an A average in high school with 1390 on my SATS. I was passed over for scholarships because I was white , yet black and hispanic kids in my school with 900 on SATS and B students got said scholarships. I didnt want to be ridden with debt so instead of Northwestern and NYU, I chose instead to go to SUNY Binghamton. State school allowed me to work and pay off my degree very quickly. I still got where I needed to get in life, and probably had to overcome far more than those who you champion for, all the while being picked on by them for being a "nerd". Now because I'm in the 35% tax bracket, you want me to pay for these people who had the same if not more opportunities than I had, with availability of same educational resources.. because I chose Ralph Waldo Emerson(From the library because I couldnt afford it). F that! Go back to your Mercedes station wagon and enjoy your nice drive through Greenwich and Waterbury Connecticut! Tell Martha Stewart I said hello, that is if you see her at Daddy's next black tie event!
It is such a small percentage of lazy, ignorant, rip of the government type people....for people such as yourself to group everyone from the middle class...be it a dental assistant or garbage man, aging grandparent or physically handicapped people into this group of people isn't fair, isn't correct, and is just plain wrongheaded. In this country we don't jump from the drunk llaying in the gutter to someone meeting up at a black tie event. I would think that a nerd such as yourself having come so far would easily understand that. Millions upon millions of regular hard working family folks are also paying big time taxes and can afford to do so much less than you can. They also were not given any more opportunities than you were for a myriad of reasons. Did they make it into the 35% brackett? maybe not, but they are taking care of their responsibilities and working as hard as you are, their "tax rate" is commiserate with their salary which is what is should be.....YOU personally aren't paying for anything more than Wall Street greed and ridiculous wars, and greed at the top tier the same as everyone paying 25% or whatever rate they fall into. GET OVER YOURSELF. YOU are no more special than anyone else. If you don't like it, blame the people who are truly at fault, not your fellow citizen!
It is such a small percentage of lazy, ignorant, rip of the government type people....for people such as yourself to group everyone from the middle class...be it a dental assistant or garbage man, aging grandparent or physically handicapped people into this group of people isn't fair, isn't correct, and is just plain wrongheaded. In this country we don't jump from the drunk llaying in the gutter to someone meeting up at a black tie event. I would think that a nerd such as yourself having come so far would easily understand that. Millions upon millions of regular hard working family folks are also paying big time taxes and can afford to do so much less than you can. They also were not given any more opportunities than you were for a myriad of reasons. Did they make it into the 35% brackett? maybe not, but they are taking care of their responsibilities and working as hard as you are, their "tax rate" is commiserate with their salary which is what is should be.....YOU personally aren't paying for anything more than Wall Street greed and ridiculous wars, and greed at the top tier the same as everyone paying 25% or whatever rate they fall into. GET OVER YOURSELF. YOU are no more special than anyone else. If you don't like it, blame the people who are truly at fault, not your fellow citizen!
Why does somebody's failure always have to be somebody elses fault?
yet you would never ever move to a neighborhood comprised solely of those that dont have "many of these benefits" as you say.
This makes zero sense. Since I think poor neighborhoods and children should be supported educationally, nutritionally and socially, I should move to one? WTF? I want a house with a lawn in the suburbs... Much like I have now. Wanting and having that is not incongruent with wanting innercities to be socially supported in an attempt to equalize opportunity.
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Originally Posted by TheEssex
Saying that they need to have things provided to them by a government is the safe play. Does the government not already provide enough for them?
Having toured public schools in Hartford, Washington DC and other places, I'm going to go with no.
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Originally Posted by TheEssex
Now because I'm in the 35% tax bracket, you want me to pay for these people who had the same if not more opportunities than I had, with availability of same educational resources.. because I chose Ralph Waldo Emerson(From the library because I couldnt afford it). F that! Go back to your Mercedes station wagon and enjoy your nice drive through Greenwich and Waterbury Connecticut! Tell Martha Stewart I said hello, that is if you see her at Daddy's next black tie event!
And they say the liberals have class envy? Really? This is how you feel? Because inadvertently you prove my point. I think YOU should have had more resources to make it easier on you. There should have been scholarship available for everybody. You should have had the books, etc, you needed for your education.
But, because you didn't and are now successful, you want to deny it to others? Pretty selfish if you ask me.
and why shouldn't a blue collar union type expect to get a white collar salary. His work isn't as difficult? demanding? physically disabling? His work isn't as important to the country?
No, the word is "valuable." I could do his job, but he couldn't do mine.
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Someone working in a call center should make more money in his "white" collar, than the guy digging coal and filling his lungs everyday with the filth that will kill him at 50 so you can keep those white collars clean?
Since when is working a call center a high paying job? That's the bottom rung of the white collar world; you might as well compare it to a blue collar worker whose only skill is shoveling manure.
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THEY ARE THE MIDDLE CLASS, Cletus!
No kidding.
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A living wage? some health insurance? a couple weeks vacation a year? Some sick pay? A pension? Which of these would YOU, Mr Cletus, consider to be an unrealistic demand? Hmmmm? I'm a little disappointed at this post, I thought you knew better.
No one is entitled to any level of compensation. In my book no one is entitled to a "living wage" or vacation or a pension; you are supposed to earn it.
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Paid for by whom? Using what type of agency to help with the costs?
Family + FAFSA + A job. Nothing that's out of the reach of the typical family with a median income.
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Unlike that high rise worker, walking that steel beam in the heat building the corporate office you will be sitting in your air conditioned cubicle soon?
Yes, unlike that high rise worker, who must work extremely hazardous jobs to make up for the fact that he has no other value in the labor market. I learned how to do complex things with my brain, so I wouldn't need to put myself in harm's way to make a living.
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Okay, I'm feeling better.....but you need to rethink your ideas about union and blue collar workers! They work as hard as you do.
I never said they didn't work hard. Working hard is completely irrelevant. This is about being valuable. Valuable has to do with skills, knowledge, efficiency, education, and decision-making ability... what you produce, not just how hard you work. I was taught the concept of delayed gratification; i worked hard when i was young so i wouldn't be forced to work hard when i'm old.
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Not everyone can or is cut out to be a college student. Not everyone has the ability to take the years from good paying jobs due to large responsibilites to get to go to school. You are a lucky man.
I am mainly lucky by genetics. I also had very good middle class parents.
There are people who grew up wealthier than me, and people who work much harder than me, and who have more natural talent than me, who failed to develop and yield much value to their employers.
Last edited by Cletus Awreetus-Awrightus; 01-13-2012 at 09:50 AM..
to get a college education in a productive, vibrant field. I grew up in the middle class, but my parents stressed hard work and education. If you do both there is no way that you can't succeed in this country. Nobody should make 90k a year out of high school without working for it. Most of those Detroit auto jobs were handed down from generation to generation. Nobody should make so much money with such good benefits without having put their "time"in in the real world and worked their way up. Flame away!
No flame. This is right on. Many of us grew up in middle class families. I know my parents had NOTHING when they came to this country. And they always stressed that education was something no one could take from you and the opportunity should never be squandered. They stressed focusing on the right fields where you could make a significant contribution to society AND secure your future. They repeated pounded in the lesson that this country was awesome because the sky is the limit for those who would work their butts off to achieve. They stressed saving money and investing in your future instead of squandering it on stupid impulse feel good purchases.
Those of us with those kinds of parents and who were raised with that kind of message will never whine about who makes how much money.
I totally know what you mean. I mean, every time I drive down the street, it's just charity after charity that only provides free day care to high income people, and soup kitchens for bankers, and there is constantly some chick with Jimmy Choo shoes and an Armani skirt using food stamps in the checkout line. To say nothing about all those "rich-only" scholarships and grants out there, and how you're only allowed to send your kid to a public school if you actually help pay for it instead of taking from the system as a whole. Then you have all those free clinics where you have to show you make at least $125,000 per year, etc.
People requiring charity are a teensy volume of our great pot of what ? * million (I've forgotton) citizens. Charitble giving is at the soul of being an American....it doesn't come from YOU obviously, and only a small part of your taxes are involved. I sincerely doubt you ever bother to drive down a street that actually has a charity on it anywhere anyay. As for governemnt welfare that you are paying for.....by far.....its the corporate welfare that costs many times more than that given out for milk money to 4 year olds....why don't you have a problem with that?
but you need to rethink your ideas about union and blue collar workers! They work as hard as you do.
No. They don't. That is politically correct bullcrud. The average american has no earthly clue how hard some of us work.
I know there are people who work even harder than I do. And I know that most people don't work nearly as hard as I do. I am not willing to go to the lengths that those people who work harder than I do go to...but I don't blame them for achieving more than me. And I don't make up bullcrud nonsense about how everyone works hard and deserves blah blah blah so I can devise ways of stealing their money from them.
but you need to rethink your ideas about union and blue collar workers! They work as hard as you do.
No. They don't. That is politically correct bullcrud. The average american has no earthly clue how hard some of us work.
I know there are people who work even harder than I do. And I know that most people don't work nearly as hard as I do. I am not willing to go to the lengths that those people who work harder than I do go to...but I don't blame them for achieving more than me. And I don't make up bullcrud nonsense about how everyone works hard and deserves blah blah blah so I can devise ways of stealing their money from them.
Yup. Only you and other select few work hard. You're special.
I am in New York City this week for work. Every day I walk past a work site where union construction crews are carrying buckets and bags full of god knows what up ladders to the third story of the building they are building. These bags and buckets look heavy. They are at work when I walk to the office in the morning and still there after I have had dinner.
I couldn't do it. These guys work hard. Harder then I do. I sit in a temperature controlled environment in front of a computer. I don't go home tired. I don't go home dirty.
These men do. And I thank them for their efforts.
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). F that! Go back to your Mercedes station wagon and enjoy your nice drive through Greenwich and Waterbury Connecticut! Tell Martha Stewart I said hello, that is if you see her at Daddy's next black tie event!
You're special.
