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Any teacher promoting Islam in a classroom is doing it on his/her own; it makes no difference. .........snip........ I don't see how anyone can claim the difference between individual views and the views of the school are so easily distinguishable at that point.
A teacher in the classroom is only allowed to discuss school approved topics, so no, they are not doing it on their own unless they are in violation of school policy in which case it would definitely not be the view of the school by definition.
I have no problem with a teacher "teaching" Islam in the classroom as long as other faiths are allowed to be represented as well. Please note I said allowed, not mandated. There is not time enough to fully discuss every possible faith choice and so only those of interest or educational significance should be entertained in depth.
The separation of church and state should be maintained so that the government is not an arm of the church and the church is not an arm of the government. To that end, the government must be tolerant of all religions and make none a favorite in any way. I think that also means they cannot protect a religion from other religions nor persecute any religion for any reason. True neutrality is the proper role of government.
If the student body, or even the school staff want to express a religious opinion, they should be allowed as long as there is no oppression of a competing view.
I agree that the cheerleaders are representing the school, but not the school authority. They represent the school body. The School staff and board represent the school authority and by extension the government (albeit a far extension in my opinion). I would never accept the word of a cheerleader as a representative of the school in a contract negotiation, why would I accept their opinion as an official governmental policy? How many 15 year olds do you think have a direct line to congress in order to pass along official policy?
No, it's not even a given that they're representing the school body (which of course, would be a misrepresentation already). The school is a separate entity from both the school body and the school authority. Or rather, the latter two are only parts of the former. When I say they're representing the school, that's exactly what I mean. Because the game is an official school function organized, funded, and regulated by the school (both the body and the authority), anything that becomes a part of the function itself is representing the school as a whole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrex62
OMG! Do you mean that my school board actually wanted me to CRUSH those Knights on the football field? They truly meant for me to Disembowl the Trojans during the basketball game? I thought they were just slogans and hype. I had no idea they were really projecting a literal intent. No wonder I was not valordictorian, I missed the whole meaning of those banners all over the school.
No one's arguing in favor of making everything on the banners literal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrex62
A teacher in the classroom is only allowed to discuss school approved topics, so no, they are not doing it on their own unless they are in violation of school policy in which case it would definitely not be the view of the school by definition.
If "doing it on your own" doesn't mean "choosing to initiate, make, and pay for it yourself", what do you think it means? It's not respective of whether it's against ANY policy, the phrase "doing it on your own".
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrex62
I have no problem with a teacher "teaching" Islam in the classroom as long as other faiths are allowed to be represented as well. Please note I said allowed, not mandated. There is not time enough to fully discuss every possible faith choice and so only those of interest or educational significance should be entertained in depth.
I see many problems arising from that already. But my only issue with the entire concept is that it's the TEACHER promoting Islam (I believe "promoting" is the word I used, not "teaching"), thereby giving one religion a higher seat than the next. Same as when you make one religion's views part of an actual school function itself and then allow all the others to be represented by individuals on the sidelines.
Does this mean it would also be ok if Muslims held up signs during sporting events that read "Allah Akbar"?
You may find this interesting.
I live in a small Texas town. Our high school football games are usually opened by a prayer from a student.
Last year one of those prayers was led by a Muslim student.
There were no problems or grumblings from the spectators at all. No drama whatsoever.
Then we PLAYED SOME FOOTBALL and it was a great game! To be honest, I don't remember whether or not we won, but that's rarely the main point for the fans - Friday night football in small town Texas is terrific fun regardless of who wins.
If it was a bunch of athiests or muslims got that won the right to publicly say their ideas, you righties wouldn't be so jolly then would you? Free speech is only good if you agree with what they say!
Welcome to America-hah Glad I left
See my post above.
In our small Texas town, there are several prominent Muslim families, who are property and business owners. Their kids, without exception, are active students, well liked by their peers, and make the honor rolls regularly. They do not hide their faith, and are not harassed because of it, and like I said, they have opened the football games with prayers in their Muslim faith before, with no negative responses.
We also have a large mosque and private Muslim school nearby as well.
The religious here have said that atheists can have these signs at the events, but they agree to it because they know their own religion is represented on the school's banner, giving the appearance that the school officially recognizes Christianity and nothing else. Taking the high ground, you know
That is what I am trying to understand.
For the life of me, I can't figure out why a team of cheer leaders would want to hold up a banner of a religious nature during an athletic competition?
Why?
Should cheerleaders hold up a banner with a political message, such as "Vote For Candidate X"? Or "Impeach Obama Now!" ???
Should cheerleaders hold up a banner with some other kind of message such as promoting one product over another?
To me it just seems inappropriate.
I mean, if cheer leaders are holding up a banner shouldn't is say something like "Jackson High School" or "Go Team Go" or "The Wolverines are #1!"??????
Please explain it to me: is it the school itself that is trying to officially endorse Christianity over other religions?
Does anyone have a direct response to the following?
Dan Barker, a member of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, disagreed.
“There’s a difference between free speech and government speech,†he said. “When those cheerleaders are wearing the uniform, when they’re at an official public high school event, they are not speaking for themselves -- they are representing the school, which has a diversity of viewpoints.â€
“School as a form of government must be neutral and include all viewpoints and not offend any viewpoints at that school,†he added.
Yes. He is mostly right and a little bit wrong.
First the wrong part: people do not have a right not to be offended, and the government has no obligation to refrain from offending people.
Now the right part: the public schools are a part of the government. It violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment for the public schools, including the cheerleaders when they are representing the school (remember--the school is the government) to be sponsoring religious beliefs, even if those beliefs happen to be shared by most people at the school and in the audience.
First the wrong part: people do not have a right not to be offended, and the government has no obligation to refrain from offending people.
Now the right part: the public schools are a part of the government. It violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment for the public schools, including the cheerleaders when they are representing the school (remember--the school is the government) to be sponsoring religious beliefs, even if those beliefs happen to be shared by most people at the school and in the audience.
No, it doesn't violate the Establishment Clause, and was ruled not to by the judge. The Establishment Clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference by the U.S. government of one religion over another.
It is a pretty long reach to argue that cheerleaders, displaying banners with bible verses on them, made with supplies they purchase with their own private funds, not school funds, while wearing a school uniform somehow constitutes the establishment of a nation religion by Congress, or the preference by the U.S. government of one religion over another. It is quite a stretch to argue that cheerleaders at a local football game now represent the United States government, which is what is specified in the Establishment Clause. All the way from Smalltown Independent School District, through local, county, and state governments all the way to the federal government.
In our small Texas town, there are several prominent Muslim families, who are property and business owners. Their kids, without exception, are active students, well liked by their peers, and make the honor rolls regularly. They do not hide their faith, and are not harassed because of it, and like I said, they have opened the football games with prayers in their Muslim faith before, with no negative responses.
We also have a large mosque and private Muslim school nearby as well.
That's ONE town. great I bet if the families were not so prominent, the story might be different. Even if not, that's good that your town is more tolerant, but the exception doesn't prove the rule. Point is it seems people get all jolly when Christians get their way, not so much when they don't or if other groups want the same preferential treatment. Here in Oz, I don't think I've ever heard of a public event having a public prayer beforehand. Nothing wrong with saying one privately before ( I used to).
I guess in the scheme of things, this isn't a huge deal, I just noticed that lots of people only celebrate "free speech victories " if they agree with the speaker.
No, it doesn't violate the Establishment Clause, and was ruled not to by the judge. The Establishment Clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference by the U.S. government of one religion over another.
It is a pretty long reach to argue that cheerleaders, displaying banners with bible verses on them, made with supplies they purchase with their own private funds, not school funds, while wearing a school uniform somehow constitutes the establishment of a nation religion by Congress, or the preference by the U.S. government of one religion over another. It is quite a stretch to argue that cheerleaders at a local football game now represent the United States government, which is what is specified in the Establishment Clause. All the way from Smalltown Independent School District, through local, county, and state governments all the way to the federal government.
By claiming that the Bill of Rights applies only to the federal government you have demonstrated beyond all doubt that you don't know what you're talking about.
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