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Forcing equal outcomes by discriminating doesn't solve the problem of either discrimination or low scores by certain races.
That's no solution at all but it's the easiest to implement by law.
Sooooooooooooooooo....Are you trying to say that Tim6624 is most likely a white supremacist?
He very well maybe. I guess unlike most people I'm not bothered much by them unless their actions end up in violence or an infringement upon my rights. It's perfectly natural to be proud of your ethnic/racial group. I'm proud of mine (Ashanti).
The problem you and others are going to have challenging or debating individuals like Tim is that from my observation he sticks to facts. While you guys stick to emotional rantings and anecdotes
Wow, what a well-reasoned and thoughtful response that employs logic and facts in evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Army Soldier
Is this saying that blacks have lower IQ's than whites?
I don't see how you could draw that conclusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttrain55
Libertarians, living with their blinders on, just like republicans. The 64 CRA passes, and all of a sudden, racism went away.
Which definition of "racism" are you using, the real definition or the hyped-up-over-used-over-stated-knee-jerk definition?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttrain55
it'll be eliminated when whites can show they won't discriminate in anyway possible, or they no longer are the majority in hiring positions. When that happens, we can eliminate AA in my opinion.
Uh, one has to discriminate, even when the discrimination is between two Whites, two Blacks, two Hispanics or two Asians.
Discrimination is normal human behavior; you discriminate every day in every thing you do, choosing this to eat over that; these clothes to wear over those; etc etc etc.
It is not possible to make a choice without using discrimination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttrain55
You seem to be of the opinion racism doesn't exist anymore when it comes to hiring minorities. Just because its 2012, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. When whites can prove themselves to choose the right person regardless of race, I'll change my stance.
Well, you see, that is the problem, because in your bizarre little disturbed world, "racism" (snicker) will never end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttrain55
why are starting any to begin with?
It's news. Hell I don't even have a TV and I know that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttrain55
If you don't like my post you can simply ignore me. I asked a simple question, whats with the obsession about black people.
I don't see where the OP is obsessed.
I do see where you are incapable of the addressing the core issues in the OPs post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerLily24
Why do you think that the police force should not be representative of the community it serves?
Mafia members should be on the police force?
How about gang members.
They're part of the community, too.....or do you intend to discriminate?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttrain55
I'm asking the OP a question about the obsession with blacks. Feel free to contribute your opinion on the topic.
Why don't you opine on the topic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by C. Maurio
A test does not prove who is "best" qualified.
No one ever said it does.
At test is merely a tool; and it is an effective tool because it "cuts to the chase" and eliminates a lot of time and money that would otherwise unnecessarily be wasted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttrain55
than why are you bothering me?
Why are you bothering the OP?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttrain55
so today's news was only about blacks?
Is the US Department of Justice investigating other police departments in the US for alleged discrimination against Hispanics, Jews or Italians?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerLily24
Do you believe that all tests are equal?
That's an absurd proposition. Why would all tests be equal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerLily24
Do you believe that testing proves that one knows everything one needs to know about a given subject?
No, testing is a tool; just like interviewing is a tool; just like reviewing education and criminal records; just like a probationary period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerLily24
You probably took the ASVAB. Did it measure how well you would handle the gas chamber test?
Point well taken, but if the person is too stupid to pass a test, it's unlikely they would understand the purpose and function of Atropine Injectors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerLily24
So you believe that testing can tell you everything you need to know about any given applicant?
Everything?
You know that there a lot of people who test well who know absolutely nothing about anything, right?
Again, testing is a tool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nighttrain55
I'm asking where are the threads for hispanics and jews, italians, etc. Why did this poster feel the need to after blacks. Did something to him/her? Was he/she attacked by a black guy? I'm just curious.
Do Hispanics, Jews and Italians fail tests and then complain they failed because of "racism" (snicker)?
Just curious. Have any links?
This is not the first time this issue has arisen.....
03-13-2011, 01:44 PM
Quote:
The Dayton Police Department is lowering its testing standards for recruits. It’s a move required by the U.S. Department of Justice after it says not enough African-Americans passed the exam.
Dayton is in desperate need of officers to replace dozens of retirees. The hiring process was postponed for months because the D.O.J. rejected the original scores provided by the Dayton Civil Service Board, which administers the test.
Under the previous requirements, candidates had to get a 66% on part one of the exam and a 72% on part two.
The D.O.J. approved new scoring policy only requires potential police officers to get a 58% and a 63%. That’s the equivalent of an ‘F’ and a ‘D’.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
Here's a sad tale that took place when I was at TRADOC headquarters. I worked on a pilot program to replace military police performing law enforcement duties with civilians who would perform the same duties.
We published a notice 90 days in advance of the test day in various Virginia dailies and through job recruiting and the state employment offices that included the date, time and location of the test and the salary and benefits.
More than 600 people took the test. We selected the top 10 test scorers and interviewed them for 5 positions: a supervisor and four patrol officers. Those five individuals would be trained for 6 months and then all 5 promoted; the supervisor would effectively be a precinct commander and the other 4 would be promoted to what would equate to a watch commander or lieutenant who supervised a shift. Normal hiring procedures would then be used to hire approximately 40 other officers would be employed by the DOD.
About 2 months into the program, we got a notice from the federal equal opportunity commission that our program was not compliant with federal laws. You can't have a white guy supervising 4 white guys. Who can you have supervising 4 white guys? A Black or a female.
We reviewed the scores again, this time with gender and racial data.
Originally when selecting candidates we did not know their age, race or gender, and getting this data from the testing company (which was contracted) was difficult because we had to get approval to get the racial and gender data.
Upon reviewing the test scores, apparently no women took the test and of the 3 dozen or so Blacks who took the test, all failed.
Before anyone jumps to baseless conclusions, I would point out that a comparatively equal number of white men also failed the test, so failing the test was not a matter of race. The test was intended to be difficult and we expected a higher percentage of failures above statistical norms in a general population (and I wrote the methodology and logic behind that as part of the original proposal).
So we interviewed the highest test scorers who were Blacks (some had since gained employment and were no longer interested), hired one to be the supervisor, demoted the supervisor to patrolman, and fired the patrolman with the lowest test score.
Several weeks later, the demoted white supervisor somehow discovered (or maybe just suspected) that he had been demoted for racial reasons and the person who replaced him didn't even pass the test, so he resigned.
A week or two after that the remaining patrolman resigned in protest.
We then began the process of hiring replacements, but the Black, upon discovering that he failed the test and was hired for racial reasons only, resigned.
That left us with no one. And the absurd thing is that now the federal equal opportunity commission wants to start an investigation to see why the Black man resigned. Brilliant. Let's waste even more time and money.
They have also now inserted themselves into the hiring process. We set a new test date, advertised in all 48 states, and spent a lot of money advertising to target women (who didn't take the first test).
Some women did take the [2nd] test, but none passed and there were a few Blacks who passed the test this time, but being way over the original $535,000 budget and not being able to meet the time frame, plus requiring another $400,000 to complete the pilot program, the DOD pulled the plug and that, as they say, was the end of that.
Your tax dollars at work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clb10
Unfortunately, Black Police Recruits Can't Compete
I don't see how you could possibly draw that conclusion.
Every study ever done in the last 15 years or so has demonstrated that Black men do no want to be police officers. As far as career opportunities, Black men desire to become doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists or social workers, or obtain Criminal Justice degrees to work as parole or probation officers or in the field of police-community relations.
What that suggests to me is that Black men have an interest in putting themselves in positions where they can provide some form of intervention in the problems that rather uniquely and specifically plague Black communities, and work on resolving those problems.
That effectively creates a "brain-drain" where the most qualified of Black men are not involving themselves in the field of law enforcement, and as a result, less qualified candidates are availing themselves of the opportunity, but not succeeding.
As you can see.....this isn't the first such problems have arisen.
Perhaps one day, you might possibly evolve intellectually and rise to a level where you can see beyond self-prophetic excuses, turn your keen high powers of observation on yourself and start asking why this is happening......because very obviously it is systemic.
The root cause here is not "racism" (snicker) rather it is something in the education system, or perhaps it is something cultural.
As a cultural example, Blacks have a dismal record of cooperating with police investigating crimes in Black communities --- Blacks are extremely reluctant to dime out other Blacks.....
....so might that aspect of Black Culture function negatively and impair test applicants in some way?
Additionally as another example of culture, Black Culture generally has a mistrust of law enforcement agencies.....might this distrust impair an applicant's ability to successfully test?
Those are two issues that ought to be seriously studied.
Aside from that, when you run out of making excuses and pointing fingers maybe you can contribute something positive to this thread.
Fine, my first post was to point out that the OP led in with a comment post that was copied from another site as opposed to his own thoughts.
As to actually answer this, maybe all the smart-to-normal intelligence black people didn't bother with trying to become police officers in Aurora, Co. And maybe all you are left with are the stupid ones. Or the fact that the white applicants outnumber the nonwhite applicants almost 2 to 1. Or the fact that black people( since of course here we will only focus on blacks even though the article was talking about hispanics as well) only make up 15% of the city pop they would probably have the lowest numbers (only 4% of the police pop. Hispanics are 30% of the city pop and 7% of the police force. But, again we are only focusing on black folk apparently.) Although anecdotal, I know very few black people that actually want to be cops. That, of course, would make sense because there is a paragraph mentioning that these guys go out seeking recruits which, of course, lets you know that the enthusiasm is lacking to some extent. And I guess they are being investigated because after all these efforts they are still having problems finding qualified minorities in sufficient numbers.
You say "black people are incompetent."
I say the competent ones aren't interested. Now you can have a discussion about that.
This is actually one of your more better posts and I suspect you are right. On a personal level something like this happened to me when I was a senior in high school. I was unsure of my future plans and a Black Army recruiter suggested I consider the military. I never really considered it before but after a couple of interactions with him I decided I'll take the test, I forget the name. The test seemed easy enough and I don't remember being stumped by anything. Evidently I scored well I think it was a 90 and this recruiter was shocked. He went on about how my black male classmates generally scored 20s and 30s, the sad part he said is that they really wanted to join the army and would be reduced to tears if their scores were too low. This was the mid 90s so maybe standards have been lowered since then.
I on the other hand decided the military wasn't for me and continued goofing off until I stumbled into college. Oh well such is life.
Wow, what a well-reasoned and thoughtful response that employs logic and facts in evidence.
I don't see how you could draw that conclusion.
Which definition of "racism" are you using, the real definition or the hyped-up-over-used-over-stated-knee-jerk definition?
Uh, one has to discriminate, even when the discrimination is between two Whites, two Blacks, two Hispanics or two Asians.
Discrimination is normal human behavior; you discriminate every day in every thing you do, choosing this to eat over that; these clothes to wear over those; etc etc etc.
It is not possible to make a choice without using discrimination.
Well, you see, that is the problem, because in your bizarre little disturbed world, "racism" (snicker) will never end.
It's news. Hell I don't even have a TV and I know that.
I don't see where the OP is obsessed.
I do see where you are incapable of the addressing the core issues in the OPs post.
Mafia members should be on the police force?
How about gang members.
They're part of the community, too.....or do you intend to discriminate?
Why don't you opine on the topic?
No one ever said it does.
At test is merely a tool; and it is an effective tool because it "cuts to the chase" and eliminates a lot of time and money that would otherwise unnecessarily be wasted.
Why are you bothering the OP?
Is the US Department of Justice investigating other police departments in the US for alleged discrimination against Hispanics, Jews or Italians?
That's an absurd proposition. Why would all tests be equal?
No, testing is a tool; just like interviewing is a tool; just like reviewing education and criminal records; just like a probationary period.
Point well taken, but if the person is too stupid to pass a test, it's unlikely they would understand the purpose and function of Atropine Injectors.
Again, testing is a tool.
Do Hispanics, Jews and Italians fail tests and then complain they failed because of "racism" (snicker)?
Just curious. Have any links?
This is not the first time this issue has arisen.....
03-13-2011, 01:44 PM
As you can see.....this isn't the first such problems have arisen.
Perhaps one day, you might possibly evolve intellectually and rise to a level where you can see beyond self-prophetic excuses, turn your keen high powers of observation on yourself and start asking why this is happening......because very obviously it is systemic.
The root cause here is not "racism" (snicker) rather it is something in the education system, or perhaps it is something cultural.
As a cultural example, Blacks have a dismal record of cooperating with police investigating crimes in Black communities --- Blacks are extremely reluctant to dime out other Blacks.....
....so might that aspect of Black Culture function negatively and impair test applicants in some way?
Additionally as another example of culture, Black Culture generally has a mistrust of law enforcement agencies.....might this distrust impair an applicant's ability to successfully test?
Those are two issues that ought to be seriously studied.
Aside from that, when you run out of making excuses and pointing fingers maybe you can contribute something positive to this thread.
Well, given that I grew up in a different time, I find it absolutely ridiculous to base my judgement on whether to hire someone solely on skin color. So for me personally, it is true.
That you can add 3+2. When a person reads a paragraph, he/she can summarize it. When a person is asked a question he/she can THINK and articulate a response.
That you can add 3+2. When a person reads a paragraph, he/she can summarize it. When a person is asked a question he/she can THINK and articulate a response.
Lots of people of all types could do that. I could walk into any police/fire test right now and pass it. Does that make me qualified to be a cop?
Forcing equal outcomes by discriminating doesn't solve the problem of either discrimination or low scores by certain races.
That's no solution at all but it's the easiest to implement by law.
I think it should go to the mot qualified for the job.
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