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It's clear to me now that this board is infested with people who hate workers, hate the fact that some people work for a wage and think those that work for a small salary are either losers, moochers or both.
Now, what is wrong with the idea of 'earning a crust'?
It's like a 3rd world mentality, whereby low paid workers are considered a joke.
It's clear to me now that this board is infested with people who hate workers, hate the fact that some people work for a wage and think those that work for a small salary are either losers, moochers or both.
Now, what is wrong with the idea of 'earning a crust'?
It's like a 3rd world mentality, whereby low paid workers are considered a joke.
I thought work was supposed to be good.
So what is going on here?
I'm basically libertarian, which I assume makes me right wing.... And I believe that I'm far more on the side of the worker than anyone on the left side politically. In fact, I think leftists always create a system that disparages low-skill workers.
Take for instance unions. While I agree unions do make sure their workers are well-paid. Those high wages come at a cost. And that cost is higher cost for the goods that unions produce. The goods union workers produce are then purchased by non-union workers, who have to pay inflated prices for the goods they buy. Had there been no unions, the wages would be lower for those employees who work in the unions. Thus the prices of goods that they produce would also be much less. Thus, the reality of unions is that their only job is to provide their members with privileges, and thats really their only purpose. Thus unions grow the income gap, not shrink it.
Almost all of the union jobs in this country, are either government jobs, jobs which can't be exported(transportation), or jobs that are heavily subsidized(bail outs/tax breaks). In fact, the majority of all union jobs are government. Almost all of the remaining union jobs are in some way subsidized by the government, or their unions hold what amounts to a monopoly(railroads). Thus, not only are unions screwing over the working poor with inflated costs of the goods they produce. But the government is taxing those working poor to provide subsidies and bailouts to the unions to make sure they can continue to screw the working poor even more.
Secondly, the unions constantly push for a higher and higher minimum wage. Not because they really care, but they don't like the competition of low wage labor. Moreover, unions always push for more and more regulation. Supposedly "to protect the consumer". But ultimately, all they are doing is making it nearly impossible for individuals to create new businesses, which helps to destroy competition in that industry.
Even more, unions who are supposedly the people who love labor so much. Are always for doing things like getting rid of NAFTA. They also push for tariffs and other protections for American industry. But while they say they are doing it for the benefit of the American worker. What they are ultimately doing, is making it difficult for the poor in other nations to pull themselves out of poverty by having new opportunities to improve their lives through labor, even if it is low paid. Thus, unions want to make sure the poor in other countries continue to live in misery. What great humanitarians they are.
Moreover, the minimum wage has no historical basis for actually improving the lives of the people of the country. Only 4% of American workers even make minimum wage right now, and almost all of them are people who are very young and who have no skills. What the minimum wage law actually does, is make it more and more difficult for anyone with low-skills to get a job. I mean, if a kid in the inner-city drops out of school and needs a job. Who wants to pay him $7.25 an hour? No one. So what options does he have? Generally, it pushes him into a life of crime, because its the only opportunity he has to make any money.
I understand what leftists are trying to do. But you are failing, and failing in a terrible way.
I'm basically libertarian, which I assume makes me right wing.... And I believe that I'm far more on the side of the worker than anyone on the left side politically. In fact, I think leftists always create a system that disparages low-skill workers.
Take for instance unions. While I agree unions do make sure their workers are well-paid. Those high wages come at a cost. And that cost is higher cost for the goods that unions produce. The goods union workers produce are then purchased by non-union workers, who have to pay inflated prices for the goods they buy. Had there been no unions, the wages would be lower for those employees who work in the unions. But the prices of goods that they produce would also be much less. Thus, the reality of unions is that their only job is to provide their members with privileges that other people basically can't realistically get. Thus unions grow the income gap, not shrink it.
Almost all of the union jobs in this country, are either government jobs, jobs which can't be exported(transportation), or jobs that are heavily subsidized(bail outs/tax breaks). In fact, the majority of all union jobs are government. Almost all of the remaining union jobs are in some way subsidized by the government, or their unions hold what amounts to a monopoly(railroads). Thus, not only are unions screwing over the working poor with inflated costs of the goods they produce. But the government is taxing those working poor to provide subsidies and bailouts to the unions to make sure they can continue to screw the working poor even more.
Secondly, the unions constantly push for a higher and higher minimum wage. Not because they really care, but they don't like the competition of low wage labor. Moreover, unions always push for more and more regulation. Supposed "to protect the consumer". But ultimately, all they are doing is making it near impossible for new companies to be able to compete.
Even more, unions and supposedly the people who love labor so much. Are always for doing things like getting rid of NAFTA. They also push for tariffs and other protections for American industry. But while they say they are doing it for the benefit of the American worker. What they are ultimately doing, is making it difficult for the poor in other nations to pull themselves out of poverty by having new opportunities. Thus, unions want to make sure the poor in other countries continue to live in misery. What great humanitarians.
Moreover, the minimum wage has no historical basis for actually improving the lives of the people of the country. Only 4% of American workers even make minimum wage right now, and almost all of them are people who are very young and who have no skills. What the minimum wage law actually does, is make it more and more difficult for anyone with low-skills to get a job. I mean, if a kid in the inner-city drops out of school and needs a job. Who wants to pay him $7.25 an hour? No one. So what options does he have? Generally, it pushes him into a life of crime, because its the only opportunity he has to make any money.
I understand what leftists are trying to do. But you are failing, and failing in a terrible way.
Union jobs are only 11% of the jobs in this country. That's not enough to control or have a dominant influence in the price of goods. You've just made a whole argument on a false assumption. Goods have a market value according to demand and supply. Not because 11% of the workforce has some conspiratorial influence on the market.
There's a reason unions and democrats push for a higher minimum wage. A higher minimum wage means more money in the hands of the working poor and the middle class. It means political power in the working poor and the middle class. The first in beneficial to the economy. The second is beneficial to democracy.
Union jobs are only 11% of the jobs in this country. That's not enough to control or have a dominant influence in the price of goods. You've just made a whole argument on a false assumption. Goods have a market value according to demand and supply. Not because 11% of the workforce has some conspiratorial influence on the market.
There's a reason unions and democrats push for a higher minimum wage. A higher minimum wage means more money in the hands of the working poor and the middle class. It means political power in the working poor and the middle class. The first in beneficial to the economy. The second is beneficial to democracy.
Listen, union jobs do have an influence on labor rates. They help to inflate labor rates in certain areas of the economy. But even worse, you have heavy regulations that also help to inflate labor rates.
The reason many jobs are paid as well as they are paid, is because of the difficulty to actually go into that profession. Take something like an electrician. Which requires years and years of experience and education to become. And while I'm not attacking education or electricians. The only reason electricians are so highly paid, is because in basically every city, you can't even build onto your own home(let alone build a new house), unless all the electrical work is done by a licensed electrician. Who most of the time, doesn't even do the work. The journeyman and apprentices do all the work, the electrician just pulls the permit and inspects the work, and pockets thousands.
In the absence of regulations that force individuals to hire licensed electricians, the cost of having electrical work done on your home would plummet. The same thing can be said for basically every single occupation that requires a license.
Think of it like a doctor. Many times you go to the doctor just for a prescription for a medication that you've basically taken all of your life. But, although you've been taking that medication all of your life, you can't legally acquire it without that prescription(which always has to be renewed). Thus you are creating a demand for doctors, where that demand otherwise wouldn't be. In the absence of licensing of doctors, and the abolition of requiring prescriptions for practically everything. The price of medical care would absolutely plummet to the ground.
Even more, in this country, it is basically impossible to operate almost any business from your own home. Thus, businesses are forced to operate not only outside of their homes(increasing costs). But also they have to operate in special commercial zones, where the cost of real estate is many times the cost of residential property. And thus the cost of starting up a new business is generally hundreds of thousands of dollars. Which prevents people with little to no access to capital, from having any realistic opportunity to start their own businesses.
Secondly, the minimum wage does absolutely nothing to give the middle-class more political power(why would it?). Nor does the minimum wage even give more political power to the working poor. The truth is, raising the minimum wage never creates a smaller gap between the working poor and everyone else. As the minimum wage rate goes up, so to goes up everyone's wages above them. And the actual gap between the poor and everyone else remains the same(and usually grows, while putting the working poor, out of work).
You might argue with me over whether or not those regulations and licensing should exist. But to try to argue that the government, or unions, actually helps the working poor. Is simply too ridiculous to even discuss. If you want, I can explain to you how car insurance mandates are effectively an extremely regressive tax that hurts the poor. And only exist to protect the assets of middle to upper classes, while guaranteeing huge profits for insurance companies. And how social security rips off the poor for the benefit of the rich. Because poor people die on average many years earlier than rich people.
I could go on if you would like?
Last edited by Redshadowz; 04-01-2013 at 03:26 AM..
It's clear to me now that this board is infested with people who hate workers, hate the fact that some people work for a wage and think those that work for a small salary are either losers, moochers or both.
Now, what is wrong with the idea of 'earning a crust'?
It's like a 3rd world mentality, whereby low paid workers are considered a joke.
I thought work was supposed to be good.
So what is going on here?
You do have a point here. I can hardly recall when the republican party was the initiator of wanting a wage increase for American workers. I think or believe democrats have always pushed for minimum wage increases, and republicans have historically been against wage increases.
Listen, union jobs do have an influence on labor rates. They help to inflate labor rates in certain areas of the economy. But even worse, you have heavy regulations that also help to inflate labor rates.
The reason many jobs are paid as well as they are paid, is because of the difficulty to actually go into that profession. Take something like an electrician. Which requires years and years of experience and education to become. And while I'm not attacking education or electricians. The only reason electricians are so highly paid, is because in basically every city, you can't even build onto your own home(let alone build a new house), unless all the electrical work is done by a licensed electrician. Who most of the time, doesn't even do the work. The journeyman and apprentices do all the work, the electrician just pulls the permit and inspects the work, and pockets thousands.
In the absence of regulations that force individuals to hire licensed electricians, the cost of having electrical work done on your home would plummet. The same thing can be said for basically every single occupation that requires a license.
There is a reason electricians must be licensed. You don't want someone who is not licensed to wire your home that could cause a fire. Isn't this common sense?
My dad's an electrician and I worked for him so I know a little about this. What your saying about journeymen and apprentices doing the work is just not true. There are no high rolling electricians that just pull the permit and then chill out at home watching ESPN while the underlings do the work. That is nonsense. Electricians work hard and its a skill that is compensated in the free market with a good wage because it is hard work and it is professional work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
Think of it like a doctor. Many times you go to the doctor just for a prescription for a medication that you've basically taken all of your life. But, although you've been taking that medication all of your life, you can't legally acquire it without that prescription(which always has to be renewed). Thus you are creating a demand for doctors, where that demand otherwise wouldn't be. In the absence of licensing of doctors, and the abolition of requiring prescriptions for practically everything. The price of medical care would absolutely plummet to the ground.
So who do you want to prescribe the medicine? I take it you think society shouldn't require a license for anything and people should be able to prescribe themselves whatever they like?
I can't respond to the rest of your post. I'm too tired and going to bed.
Listen, union jobs do have an influence on labor rates. They help to inflate labor rates in certain areas of the economy. But even worse, you have heavy regulations that also help to inflate labor rates.
The reason many jobs are paid as well as they are paid, is because of the difficulty to actually go into that profession. Take something like an electrician. Which requires years and years of experience and education to become. And while I'm not attacking education or electricians. The only reason electricians are so highly paid, is because in basically every city, you can't even build onto your own home(let alone build a new house), unless all the electrical work is done by a licensed electrician. Who most of the time, doesn't even do the work. The journeyman and apprentices do all the work, the electrician just pulls the permit and inspects the work, and pockets thousands.
In the absence of regulations that force individuals to hire licensed electricians, the cost of having electrical work done on your home would plummet. The same thing can be said for basically every single occupation that requires a license.
Think of it like a doctor. Many times you go to the doctor just for a prescription for a medication that you've basically taken all of your life. But, although you've been taking that medication all of your life, you can't legally acquire it without that prescription(which always has to be renewed). Thus you are creating a demand for doctors, where that demand otherwise wouldn't be. In the absence of licensing of doctors, and the abolition of requiring prescriptions for practically everything. The price of medical care would absolutely plummet to the ground.
Even more, in this country, it is basically impossible to operate almost any business from your own home. Thus, businesses are forced to operate not only outside of their homes(increasing costs). But also they have to operate in special commercial zones, where the cost of real estate is many times the cost of residential property. And thus the cost of starting up a new business is generally hundreds of thousands of dollars. Which prevents people with little to no access to capital, from having any realistic opportunity to start their own businesses.
Secondly, the minimum wage does absolutely nothing to give the middle-class more political power(why would it?). Nor does the minimum wage even give more political power to the working poor. The truth is, raising the minimum wage never creates a smaller gap between the working poor and everyone else. As the minimum wage rate goes up, so to goes up everyone's wages above them. And the actual gap between the poor and everyone else remains the same(and usually grows, while putting the working poor, out of work).
You might argue with me over whether or not those regulations and licensing should exist. But to try to argue that the government, or unions, actually helps the working poor. Is simply too ridiculous to even discuss. If you want, I can explain to you how car insurance mandates are effectively an extremely regressive tax that hurts the poor. And only exist to protect the assets of middle to upper classes, while guaranteeing huge profits for insurance companies. And how social security rips off the poor for the benefit of the rich. Because poor people die on average many years earlier than rich people.
I could go on if you would like?
The reason we have building codes and require licenced persons to "do" or sign off on jobs, is to lessen the incidents of faulty or dangerous work preformed. We have had the "no licence" no permit needed to do a job era...with terrible consequences. Electrical fires and electrocutions are far less common with licenced/permitted work preformed. You can have your brother in-law wire your home if you wish, but I would want you not to call 911 for assistance when your home depot wire-job goes badly.
Work performed by a licenced person will not guarranty no problems will arise, but the practice does lessen the overall amount of incidents. By far.
There is a reason electricians must be licensed. You don't want someone who is not licensed to wire your home that could cause a fire. Isn't this common sense?
My dad's an electrician and I worked for him so I know a little about this. What your saying about journeymen and apprentices doing the work is just not true. There are no high rolling electricians that just pull the permit and then chill out at home watching ESPN while the underlings do the work. That is nonsense. Electricians work hard and its a skill that is compensated in the free market with a good wage because it is hard work and it is professional work.
Look, there are basically two types of electricians. You have basically your individual electricians. Who stay all day doing work alongside the journeymen and apprentices. Then you have your big business electricians. Who have several different crews, all headed by a journeyman, who basically does all the electrical work on their own. In that kind of setup, the electricians job, is mostly just paperwork and inspections. Ultimately, their license is on the line if the job isn't done right, so they don't sign off unless the job is done right, but they don't actually do the work. They are getting paid just by virtue of having a license.
And even worse, not only do electricians have to inspect the electrical work before signing off. Right afterwards, a city inspector has to come in and sign off on the electrical work, even though the licensed electrician supposedly was doing the work(and thus is assumed to know what he is doing?)
If you really think we need licensed electricians to do the work, why does the city have to inspect their work? Why can't I just do my own work, and just pay the city to inspect it(if you actually think it is a real safety issue, but it almost never is)? That would at least greatly reduce costs, while also preventing houses from burning down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldous9
So who do you want to prescribe the medicine? I take it you think society shouldn't require a license for anything and people should be able to prescribe themselves whatever they like?
I can't respond to the rest of your post. I'm too tired and going to bed.
I don't think people should be able to "prescribe" themselves whatever they like. They should just be able to buy medicines like they buy anything else. I have asthma, and for some reason, albuterol requires a prescription. No ****ing clue why. The truth is, 90% of drugs could be sold without a prescription and it wouldn't really change anything at all. Before you start ranting about how if there weren't prescription everyone would be dying because they would be taking too many or too few. The reality is that, people already die all the time from prescription drugs, because they abuse them. All requiring a prescription does, is just make it harder(and much more expensive) for honest people to get the things they need.
I'm basically libertarian, which I assume makes me right wing.... And I believe that I'm far more on the side of the worker than anyone on the left side politically. In fact, I think leftists always create a system that disparages low-skill workers.
Take for instance unions. While I agree unions do make sure their workers are well-paid. Those high wages come at a cost. And that cost is higher cost for the goods that unions produce. The goods union workers produce are then purchased by non-union workers, who have to pay inflated prices for the goods they buy. Had there been no unions, the wages would be lower for those employees who work in the unions. Thus the prices of goods that they produce would also be much less. Thus, the reality of unions is that their only job is to provide their members with privileges, and thats really their only purpose. Thus unions grow the income gap, not shrink it.
Almost all of the union jobs in this country, are either government jobs, jobs which can't be exported(transportation), or jobs that are heavily subsidized(bail outs/tax breaks). In fact, the majority of all union jobs are government. Almost all of the remaining union jobs are in some way subsidized by the government, or their unions hold what amounts to a monopoly(railroads). Thus, not only are unions screwing over the working poor with inflated costs of the goods they produce. But the government is taxing those working poor to provide subsidies and bailouts to the unions to make sure they can continue to screw the working poor even more.
Secondly, the unions constantly push for a higher and higher minimum wage. Not because they really care, but they don't like the competition of low wage labor. Moreover, unions always push for more and more regulation. Supposedly "to protect the consumer". But ultimately, all they are doing is making it nearly impossible for individuals to create new businesses, which helps to destroy competition in that industry.
Even more, unions who are supposedly the people who love labor so much. Are always for doing things like getting rid of NAFTA. They also push for tariffs and other protections for American industry. But while they say they are doing it for the benefit of the American worker. What they are ultimately doing, is making it difficult for the poor in other nations to pull themselves out of poverty by having new opportunities to improve their lives through labor, even if it is low paid. Thus, unions want to make sure the poor in other countries continue to live in misery. What great humanitarians they are.
Moreover, the minimum wage has no historical basis for actually improving the lives of the people of the country. Only 4% of American workers even make minimum wage right now, and almost all of them are people who are very young and who have no skills. What the minimum wage law actually does, is make it more and more difficult for anyone with low-skills to get a job. I mean, if a kid in the inner-city drops out of school and needs a job. Who wants to pay him $7.25 an hour? No one. So what options does he have? Generally, it pushes him into a life of crime, because its the only opportunity he has to make any money.
I understand what leftists are trying to do. But you are failing, and failing in a terrible way.
Have you noticed that cars produced with union labor are priced comparably to those produced by non union labor? If you want to point the finger at someone for keeping people poor in other countries start with Walmart.If someone has a business that can`t afford to pay people $7.25 an hour that business needs to die and die quickly. Subsidizing low wages with food stamps and Medicaid needs to come to an end.
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