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Old 04-06-2013, 09:47 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,863 posts, read 46,634,918 times
Reputation: 18521

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A must read for all those confused, wondering, or out right worried about what is happening with the world today.

Great read....

Hayek argues that Western democracies, including the United Kingdom and the United States, have “progressively abandoned that freedom in economic affairs without which personal and political freedom has never existed in the past. Society has mistakenly tried to ensure continuing prosperity by centralized planning, which inevitably leads to totalitarianism. “We have in effect undertaken to dispense with the forces which produced unforeseen results and to replace the impersonal and anonymous mechanism of the market by collective and ‘conscious’ direction of all social forces to deliberately chosen goals.”


Socialism, while presented as a means of assuring equality, does so through “restraint and servitude”, while “democracy seeks equality in liberty” Planning, because coercive, is an inferior method of regulation, while the competition of a free market is superior “because it is the only method by which our activities can be adjusted to each other without coercive or arbitrary intervention of authority”.




Centralized planning is inherently undemocratic in Hayek's view, because it requires "that the will of a small minority be imposed upon the people..." The power of these minorities to act by taking money or property in pursuit of centralized goals, destroys the Rule of Law and individual freedoms. Where there is centralized planning, "the individual would more than ever become a mere means, to be used by the authority in the service of such abstractions as the 'social welfare' or the 'good of the community'". Even the very poor have more personal freedom in an open society than a centrally planned one. "[W]hile the last resort of a competitive economy is the baliff , the ultimate sanction of a planned economy is the hangman." Socialism is a hypocritical system, because its professed humanitarian goals can only be put into practice by brutal methods "of which most socialists disapprove". Such centralized systems also require effective propaganda, so that the people come to believe that the state's goals are theirs.
Hayek argues that the roots of Nazism lie in socialism, and then draws parallels to the thought of British leaders:
The increasing veneration for the state, the admiration of power, and of bigness for bigness' sake, the enthusiasm for "organization" of everything (we now call it "planning") and that "inability to leave anything to the simple power of organic growth"...are all scarcely less marked in England now than they were in Germany.
Hayek believed that after World War II, "wisdom in the management of our economic affairs will be even more important than before and that the fate of our civilization will ultimately depend on how we solve the economic problems we shall then face".The only chance to build a decent world is "to improve the general level of wealth" via the activities of free markets. He saw international organization as involving a further threat to individual freedom. He concluded: "The guiding principle that a policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy remains as true today as it was in the nineteenth century.


Friedrich Hayek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:51 PM
 
5,261 posts, read 4,156,738 times
Reputation: 2264
If centralized planning is the enemy, why do so many of you defend our corporations, which are the essence of command economies?
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:53 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,863 posts, read 46,634,918 times
Reputation: 18521
Quote:
Originally Posted by cometclear View Post
If centralized planning is the enemy, why do so many of you defend our corporations, which are the essence of command economies?
Who is you?
I ask the same questions?

Corpo's are not people!



Think about what our dollar is valued on and who has the power to put the dollar that is tied to our blood, sweat and tears... to work?
By locking it to our labor, it immediately made us all slaves of the State.
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:58 PM
 
Location: NC
9,984 posts, read 10,394,292 times
Reputation: 3086
I don't think that centralized planning is necessarily a road to serfdom since I think it is ultimately too inefficient. What I worry more about is organized religion and excessively powerful non-state actors who gain control over the state.

Western individuals have tended to favor freedom every since the days of Greece and Rome. The only time freedom was really suppressed in western civilization was when you had groups that used the power of the state to enrich themselves, and a church that could effectively keep people docile and unquestioning.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:13 PM
 
48,502 posts, read 96,867,563 times
Reputation: 18304
Quote:
Originally Posted by cometclear View Post
If centralized planning is the enemy, why do so many of you defend our corporations, which are the essence of command economies?
I thnik your missing what centralized meansin economic terms. If you think about it the governamnt is the biggewst to big to fail enity in the country but its on failing terms econmically.It sucks more and mroe and borrows what it can pass by it managemnt i funding.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:23 PM
 
5,261 posts, read 4,156,738 times
Reputation: 2264
Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
I thnik your missing what centralise plan means in economic.Seprate corproatio comepeteing is not centralised business even.
First, the same failures that exist within a command economy in the public sector exist in a private sector command economy.

Second, take a look at your posts before you submit them. You're getting to the point that your misspellings make it difficult to understand what you are trying to convey. You make me sound like an old conservative, but the English language is important. It's important to make an effort to use it properly. For instance, by this point in your life, you should know the distinction between "your" and "you're." I would suggest you learn it. Not only does it not reflect well on you when you might occasionally have to write something for someone who does understand these things, but there should be some intrinsic desire within you to want to use the language properly. Again, if you lack that, cultivate such a desire.
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:15 PM
 
Location: None of your business
5,466 posts, read 4,423,692 times
Reputation: 1179
Quote:
Originally Posted by cometclear View Post
First, the same failures that exist within a command economy in the public sector exist in a private sector command economy.

Second, take a look at your posts before you submit them. You're getting to the point that your misspellings make it difficult to understand what you are trying to convey. You make me sound like an old conservative, but the English language is important. It's important to make an effort to use it properly. For instance, by this point in your life, you should know the distinction between "your" and "you're." I would suggest you learn it. Not only does it not reflect well on you when you might occasionally have to write something for someone who does understand these things, but there should be some intrinsic desire within you to want to use the language properly. Again, if you lack that, cultivate such a desire.
If only we could all be as perfect as you.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:22 AM
 
13,692 posts, read 9,011,664 times
Reputation: 10409
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
A must read for all those confused, wondering, or out right worried about what is happening with the world today.

Great read....

Hayek argues that Western democracies, including the United Kingdom and the United States, have “progressively abandoned that freedom in economic affairs without which personal and political freedom has never existed in the past. Society has mistakenly tried to ensure continuing prosperity by centralized planning, which inevitably leads to totalitarianism. “We have in effect undertaken to dispense with the forces which produced unforeseen results and to replace the impersonal and anonymous mechanism of the market by collective and ‘conscious’ direction of all social forces to deliberately chosen goals.”


Socialism, while presented as a means of assuring equality, does so through “restraint and servitude”, while “democracy seeks equality in liberty” Planning, because coercive, is an inferior method of regulation, while the competition of a free market is superior “because it is the only method by which our activities can be adjusted to each other without coercive or arbitrary intervention of authority”.




Centralized planning is inherently undemocratic in Hayek's view, because it requires "that the will of a small minority be imposed upon the people..." The power of these minorities to act by taking money or property in pursuit of centralized goals, destroys the Rule of Law and individual freedoms. Where there is centralized planning, "the individual would more than ever become a mere means, to be used by the authority in the service of such abstractions as the 'social welfare' or the 'good of the community'". Even the very poor have more personal freedom in an open society than a centrally planned one. "[W]hile the last resort of a competitive economy is the baliff , the ultimate sanction of a planned economy is the hangman." Socialism is a hypocritical system, because its professed humanitarian goals can only be put into practice by brutal methods "of which most socialists disapprove". Such centralized systems also require effective propaganda, so that the people come to believe that the state's goals are theirs.
Hayek argues that the roots of Nazism lie in socialism, and then draws parallels to the thought of British leaders:
The increasing veneration for the state, the admiration of power, and of bigness for bigness' sake, the enthusiasm for "organization" of everything (we now call it "planning") and that "inability to leave anything to the simple power of organic growth"...are all scarcely less marked in England now than they were in Germany.
Hayek believed that after World War II, "wisdom in the management of our economic affairs will be even more important than before and that the fate of our civilization will ultimately depend on how we solve the economic problems we shall then face".The only chance to build a decent world is "to improve the general level of wealth" via the activities of free markets. He saw international organization as involving a further threat to individual freedom. He concluded: "The guiding principle that a policy of freedom for the individual is the only truly progressive policy remains as true today as it was in the nineteenth century.


Friedrich Hayek - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
By the by, who wrote that entry for Wikipedia?
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:51 AM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,863 posts, read 46,634,918 times
Reputation: 18521
Quote:
Originally Posted by legalsea View Post
By the by, who wrote that entry for Wikipedia?


Is there a way to find who composes the stuff on Wiki?
That would be good info to know.



Working off of the earlier work of Ludwig von Mises, Hayek also argued that while in centrally planned economies an individual or a select elite group of individuals must determine the distribution of resources, these so called planners will never have enough education, information, or common sense, to carry out this distribution reliably. This argument, says that the efficient exchange and use of resources can be maintained only through the price liberties, in free markets.

Boy do we see this very thing in progress. They have no clue as they look down from their ivory towers.
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:34 AM
 
13,692 posts, read 9,011,664 times
Reputation: 10409
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
Is there a way to find who composes the stuff on Wiki?
That would be good info to know.



Working off of the earlier work of Ludwig von Mises, Hayek also argued that while in centrally planned economies an individual or a select elite group of individuals must determine the distribution of resources, these so called planners will never have enough education, information, or common sense, to carry out this distribution reliably. This argument, says that the efficient exchange and use of resources can be maintained only through the price liberties, in free markets.

Boy do we see this very thing in progress. They have no clue as they look down from their ivory towers.
It would indeed be good information to know. How does one know if the information presented is accurate?

Reminds me of the time that a British minister was making some wacky claim in Parliament. Said minister's aide was listening, appalled, and decided to take quick action: said aide went on Wikipedia and edited the information to reflect the minister's claim. The folly was quickly revealed, of course.

Did you know that Wikipedia, when it first launched, called itself The People's Encyclopedia?
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