Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I've been thinking about this with the NSA taps and now the thread on cops being allowed to seize your cellphone at the scene of an accident to see if you were texting. A lot of this is 4th Amendment stuff but what about the 5th?
I'm not talking about getting rid of the entire 5th, just the witness against yourself part. If you aren't guilty then what's there to hide? If you are guilty then if we take out the section in bold below it should help move cases through the system.
Maybe the reason to keep it is not due to guilt or not but in cases where evidence can be used against you as an inference to build a case where there isn't any hard evidence.
But besides that, what do you have to hide? Shouldn't we be looking at ways to make police and prosecutor's jobs easier?
Or maybe just disallow the non-direct use. Just hand over your cell phone and decrypt your hard drives and let your devices rat you out.
What do you think? And as a refresher I'm including the 4th below.
Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
The 5th is designed not only to protect the guilty citizen and put the burned of proof on the state, but also to protect innocent citizens caught up in nebulous scenarios. You are free to waive your right(s) any time you wish, but I can't imagine any reason why you would want to lessen personal rights.
I've been thinking about this with the NSA taps and now the thread on cops being allowed to seize your cellphone at the scene of an accident to see if you were texting. A lot of this is 4th Amendment stuff but what about the 5th?
I'm not talking about getting rid of the entire 5th, just the witness against yourself part. If you aren't guilty then what's there to hide? If you are guilty then if we take out the section in bold below it should help move cases through the system.
Maybe the reason to keep it is not due to guilt or not but in cases where evidence can be used against you as an inference to build a case where there isn't any hard evidence.
But besides that, what do you have to hide? Shouldn't we be looking at ways to make police and prosecutor's jobs easier?
Or maybe just disallow the non-direct use. Just hand over your cell phone and decrypt your hard drives and let your devices rat you out.
What do you think? And as a refresher I'm including the 4th below.
Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Yes, we absolutely need the government to recognize our right not to be compelled to be a witness against one's self. Unless you enjoy getting beaten by law enforcement until you confess to crimes you never committed.
Yes, we absolutely need the government to recognize our right not to be compelled to be a witness against one's self. Unless you enjoy getting beaten by law enforcement until you confess to crimes you never committed.
What do you think "compelled" means?
Yes, congress should have taken Lois Lerner to the woodshed.
Yes, we absolutely need the government to recognize our right not to be compelled to be a witness against one's self. Unless you enjoy getting beaten by law enforcement until you confess to crimes you never committed.
What do you think "compelled" means?
I think of compelled meaning if you don't testify against yourself then you are in contempt and can be punished.
Regardless of the 5th, assault as you mention is illegal.
I've been thinking about this with the NSA taps and now the thread on cops being allowed to seize your cellphone at the scene of an accident to see if you were texting. A lot of this is 4th Amendment stuff but what about the 5th?
I'm not talking about getting rid of the entire 5th, just the witness against yourself part. If you aren't guilty then what's there to hide? If you are guilty then if we take out the section in bold below it should help move cases through the system.
Maybe the reason to keep it is not due to guilt or not but in cases where evidence can be used against you as an inference to build a case where there isn't any hard evidence.
But besides that, what do you have to hide? Shouldn't we be looking at ways to make police and prosecutor's jobs easier?
Or maybe just disallow the non-direct use. Just hand over your cell phone and decrypt your hard drives and let your devices rat you out.
What do you think? And as a refresher I'm including the 4th below.
Amendment IV The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself,nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Doesn't sound too comforting to me. What passes for due process these days?
If they pay you or run you through some process they can take everything?
I was born in NYC, but as a child and a young man I first grew up in the oil camps of Venezuela, then lived Mexico City, Athens, Rome, Paris and London. I also traveled extensively throughout the world for various jobs or vacation and every time I got off the plane in the United States I wanted to kiss the ground.
This country is amazing. The rights and freedoms Americans enjoy are astonishing, especially when compared to other countries. Yet most Americans don't realize what a special place it is and always want to tinker with it and change things. I think part of that is just the American spirit, but don't ever surrender your rights. What the government gives it can just as easily take away. Don't willingly give up any right afforded by our constitution, once that happens, you don't get them back.
That's what's so sad about the last decade since 9/11. We have willingly surrendered ourselves to bigger and more invasive government for a false sense of security, witness the Boston Marathon. We will never be able to go back to a pre-9/11 mentality, but where we are headed is unacceptable for a free country. I don't care for what Snowden did, but he has started a conversation this country desperately needs about its future.
The 5th is designed not only to protect the guilty citizen and put the burned of proof on the state, but also to protect innocent citizens caught up in nebulous scenarios. You are free to waive your right(s) any time you wish, but I can't imagine any reason why you would want to lessen personal rights.
Only a craven coward and wannabe fascist would ever use the phrase "if you are innocent, then you have nothing to hide." It is the innocent the Fifth Amendment is designed to protect.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
