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As lifelong Michiganian until 5 yrs ago, always felt the legacy costs would need adjusting.
Everyone thinks UAW get so much. Wrong!
My hubby, a skilled trades UAW retiree gets amount of social security subtracted from his pension. OTOH municipal union workers, my brother in law, gets FULL pension PLUS social security.
This needs to be adjusted so that the taxpayers can run they cities!
The union gravy train needs to back up.
I have zero problem with private unions....it's the public unions that have run-rampant.
The big difference is that all the sweet pension and retiree medical deals they were getting DIDN'T have to be accounted for like they would at a private company. So basically, in exchange for the city union votes, the city politicians handed them sweetheart deals that didn't hurt the books.
I don't like seeing anybodys pension get reduced or cut but the money isn't there. It sucks but that's life.
Obviously the city was warned, but that has nothing to do with hurting the people that worked for and paid into their pension system with the expectation that they'd have a certain fixed income to live on.
Let's not be so heartless for crying out loud.
Not heartless, but sick of the hypocrisy. Lots of folks in the private sector lose pensions when their companies go under, but no crying for them. Enron comes to mind. In fact, when they went under, the workers were given no sympathy, and told that's what they get for working for that company.
Guess it's only public unions that deserve our "hearts".
I do feel for these folks, many of whom worked hard and are now faced with a future that is terrifying. But how many of them worked at jobs that paid them MUCH more than they should have been making, just because the money was flowing? And given pensions MUCH higher than their private sector counterparts?
I have zero problem with private unions....it's the public unions that have run-rampant.
The big difference is that all the sweet pension and retiree medical deals they were getting DIDN'T have to be accounted for like they would at a private company. So basically, in exchange for the city union votes, the city politicians handed them sweetheart deals that didn't hurt the books.
I don't like seeing anybodys pension get reduced or cut but the money isn't there. It sucks but that's life.
exactly -- and IMO if the pensioners have a problem with it, they should blame their union.
Not heartless, but sick of the hypocrisy. Lots of folks in the private sector lose pensions when their companies go under, but no crying for them. Enron comes to mind. In fact, when they went under, the workers were given no sympathy, and told that's what they get for working for that company.
Guess it's only public unions that deserve our "hearts".
I do feel for these folks, many of whom worked hard and are now faced with a future that is terrifying. But how many of them worked at jobs that paid them MUCH more than they should have been making, just because the money was flowing? And given pensions MUCH higher than their private sector counterparts?
At least those in private pensions have PBGC to fall back on.
Public workers have nothing.
Several small cities went belly up over the past 5 years and those retired people get nothing and have no recourse.
The normal joe is not at fault here. He showed up for 30 years and got hired on, usually at less pay because of the benefits. That was true back then..gov workers got paid less but had better retirement benefits. Now gov workers make more than private in some areas and still have better benefits.
What gov didn't do was transition to self funded (401K or equiv) like the private companies did starting back in the late 90's.
My company no longer offers a pension to new hires.
They phased that out over a decade ago.
Blame won't pay the bills and no one will hire on a 60 year old these days.
And they won't get SS either because they didn't pay into it.
They really are screwed.
But the government is making sure that Wall Street keeps on rolling. This is the hypocrisy that many want to ignore. In the big picture the country would have been better off for the government to bail out the retiree's of Detroit than Wall Street but that isn't what happened.
The government made sure to look after Wall Street but we continue to ignore their actions here because politics won't allow many to condemn their actions.
A good friend of mine I hung out with NEVER missed a chance to tell everyone how he was going to retire early with 100% of his pay. How we were going to still be workin for the man and he was going to be fishing every day. This went on for years until it started to hit the fan. Now he's shifted to "Give me back my pension". I told him time and again if it sounds to good to be true........
He could have bailed out at any time but he was positive he had it figured out.
There is no pension plan that provides a benefit of 100% of one's ending salary, even if they don't retire early.
And, BTW, public employees/retirees pay taxes, too.
But the government is making sure that Wall Street keeps on rolling. This is the hypocrisy that many want to ignore. In the big picture the country would have been better off for the government to bail out the retiree's of Detroit than Wall Street but that isn't what happened.
The government made sure to look after Wall Street but we continue to ignore their actions here because politics won't allow many to condemn their actions.
What the Federal Government does with Wall Street has NOTHING to do with how Detroit managed their finances.
And Wall Street paid back the "loans" when compensation strings got attached.
You bail out Detroit and everyone and their brother will also need to get bailed out.
And what about those small cities that didn't make headlines ?
Those folks haven't had pension checks for near 5 years now.
You can't just print up money when you need it.
Well you can but you will pay the price for it.
How many cities in CA have declared bankruptcy ?
After Detroit will we bail them out ?
At what point will people understand what MORAL HAZARD means ?
What the Federal Government does with Wall Street has NOTHING to do with how Detroit managed their finances.
And Wall Street paid back the "loans" when compensation strings got attached.
No they didn't but that is indeed a different topic.
Quote:
You bail out Detroit and everyone and their brother will also need to get bailed out.
And what about those small cities that didn't make headlines ?
Those folks haven't had pension checks for near 5 years now.
I don't disagree. I am not arguing for bailing them out. Very early in this thread I noted that if we bailed them out nobody learns a lesson. Just the same as we are now doing with the countries fiscal policies.
Quote:
You can't just print up money when you need it.
Well you can but you will pay the price for it.
How many cities in CA have declared bankruptcy ?
After Detroit will we bail them out ?
At what point will people understand what MORAL HAZARD means ?
Why should retiree's be the only ones forced to understand this lesson?
Which is why it is good judgment to OWN your own retirement. And have it absolutely untouchable by government. Imagine the screaming when Social Security collapses and payouts at best become trivial.
You can't help but hurt for the people.
Lesson to be learned: Never trust government promises.
I concur with you!!!
It's no wonder I'm hearing so much about people who followed the old saying about "grandma stuffing money "under the mattress".
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