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The majority of absentees voting Republican are military. Are you saying they vote fraudulently? Not very likely in my experience. Military people are generally law-abiding, and not a homogenous voting group either. Many also vote Democrat, via absentee ballots.
You were I believe the one who wants to stop ineligible voting at all costs. If you are serious this is where you go. Nothing gets used for fraud as much as absentee ballots.
So you recognize you don't really want to stop fraud at the expense of depriving our military of the right to vote? But depriving a few old and minority folk is OK? How do you want this to work?
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I agree with your overall point that certain types of voting wouldn't even be helped by voter ID laws. But then again, it's left up to the individual states to set up their own voting apparatus. I sure wouldn't want a large state like Texas to use mail-in ballots like tiny Oregon does. Oregon can get away with it because of their small population, but I'd still think it's rife with fraud, especially in the local elections.
Actually you have never seen voter fraud until you live in the deep south or eastern cities. It is well developed art. Has nothing to do with phantom voters. And lots of places in TX have raised vote fraud to high levels. All you need is a one sided electorate and it is easy.
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Voter fraud is happening, whether it's been proven or not. Many instances aren't even investigated because if the party in charge controls the whole apparatus, then who is going to bring charges? Think a Democrat is going to investigate Democrat voter fraud, or a Republican is going to investigate Republican fraud? My guess is not unless they were caught with their proverbial hand in the cookie jar.
We agree. Fraud does occur though not nearly as big a deal as sometimes suggested. But it has nothing to do with voter ID. It deals with absentee ballots and stuffing ballot boxes. And no one on the right is actually interested in doing anything about it.
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So it seems to me that in this day and age, when photo IDs are required for all manner of things, then it's not inherently racist to require someone show ID at the polling location. I personally find it convenient because I'm not very good at keeping track of my voter registration card even though I get one in the mail every year. Now I can just show my ID and it's checked against a list in my precinct. Easy peasy.
NV has a way of doing that for all voters. But the right does not like it as it does not keep some from voting. A strong suggestion that they are interested in suppression not prevention.
The majority of absentees voting Republican are military. Are you saying they vote fraudulently? Not very likely in my experience. Military people are generally law-abiding, and not a homogenous voting group either. Many also vote Democrat, via absentee ballots.
I agree with your overall point that certain types of voting wouldn't even be helped by voter ID laws. But then again, it's left up to the individual states to set up their own voting apparatus. I sure wouldn't want a large state like Texas to use mail-in ballots like tiny Oregon does. Oregon can get away with it because of their small population, but I'd still think it's rife with fraud, especially in the local elections.
Voter fraud is happening, whether it's been proven or not. Many instances aren't even investigated because if the party in charge controls the whole apparatus, then who is going to bring charges? Think a Democrat is going to investigate Democrat voter fraud, or a Republican is going to investigate Republican fraud? My guess is not unless they were caught with their proverbial hand in the cookie jar.
So it seems to me that in this day and age, when photo IDs are required for all manner of things, then it's not inherently racist to require someone show ID at the polling location. I personally find it convenient because I'm not very good at keeping track of my voter registration card even though I get one in the mail every year. Now I can just show my ID and it's checked against a list in my precinct. Easy peasy.
If you can't prove it then how do you know it is happening. I have a unicorn ranch in Wyoming, I can't prove it to you, but it is true.
You were I believe the one who wants to stop ineligible voting at all costs. If you are serious this is where you go. Nothing gets used for fraud as much as absentee ballots.
So you recognize you don't really want to stop fraud at the expense of depriving our military of the right to vote? But depriving a few old and minority folk is OK? How do you want this to work? I don't believe requiring ID is depriving minority folk of the vote. I do agree that some elderly people born in the first half of the 20th Century may have trouble getting birth certificates, but I would think we could give them waivers if they could show something proving they've been here (like being registered to vote for a long time, or baptismal record or family bible recording birth, or some other way that would be fair to the person). I don't think they're the ones committing fraud. I also wouldn't mind if the ID was an expired or suspended license as long as it truly was obtained by the person voting.
I don't want to deprive people serving our country the right to vote, and it's not like they have a choice but to vote absentee if they're serving overseas at the government's whim. I'm not sure who else really votes absentee except maybe snow birds or college students or ex-pats. Surely there is a good mix of Democratic and Republican voters in those groups. I only mentioned the military as the group that probably votes more for Republicans than other groups of absentee voters.
Actually you have never seen voter fraud until you live in the deep south or eastern cities. It is well developed art. Has nothing to do with phantom voters. And lots of places in TX have raised vote fraud to high levels. All you need is a one sided electorate and it is easy. Exactly my point!
We agree. Fraud does occur though not nearly as big a deal as sometimes suggested. But it has nothing to do with voter ID. It deals with absentee ballots and stuffing ballot boxes. And no one on the right is actually interested in doing anything about it. Well, I am. Voter ID is the easiest fix, but more poll watchers from both sides should be allowed to watch the vote tally to ensure fairness.
NV has a way of doing that for all voters. But the right does not like it as it does not keep some from voting. A strong suggestion that they are interested in suppression not prevention. Honestly, I don't care what the political parties want, but I as a citizen of this country want elections to be fair. A fraudulent vote could cancel out my vote. Everyone should want honest elections. The only ones that don't seem to be the political parties who want to keep their power.
NV has a way of doing that for all voters. But the right does not like it as it does not keep some from voting. A strong suggestion that they are interested in suppression not prevention.
I did want to respond to this specifically since I re-read your earlier post. Texas has been requesting ID at the polls for years to check off a list, though I'm pretty sure they will accept a voter registration card in place of ID. At least they did at the last election. I still think most people have a photo ID, no matter their race or income level. We're talking about a very small percentage of the population that don't, so it would seem that get-out-the-vote groups could help the small group of people obtain ID who would have a hard time obtaining it on their own - provide transportation or assistance with ordering birth certificates. Most of the states instituting ID requirements are allowing for no cost or low cost options. This is the 21st Century. I'm just a little doubtful that it's so hard to obtain ID.
Sure, it has nothing to do with the fact that we have a large illegal immigrant population, or the instances of voter fraud, or the fact that many elections are decided by the slimmest of margins and ineligible voters should not be the deciding vote.
If you ask me, it's insulting to insinuate that poor people aren't capable of obtaining proof needed to vote. How do they get jobs without ID? How do they get registered to vote without some proof of eligibility? I certainly had to show a birth certificate many years ago when I obtained a driver's license. I don't even mind if they allow people with expired or suspended licenses to vote as long as they have the ID and it was obtained by that person by proving citizenship. Nelson Mandela never seemed to think it was racist to require ID to vote.
You may not have noticed, but NM was not part of the American voting system. If south Africa feels the need to have people id in order to vote that is their privilege and preference.
And who is it that insinuated that poor people can't provide proof needed to vote?
And lastly, not everyone need an id for everyday life. Many don't drive - or even have much need to leave the house. It is an unnecessary imposition to force them to get an id just because republicans have been caught trying to vote illegally.
Last edited by blktoptrvl; 02-12-2014 at 06:18 AM..
You're comparing a mythical creature to voter fraud, a well-known occurrence? I'm sorry, but that's not a persuasive argument.
Yet you lack proof of how much it happens. So yes, voter fraud is similar to a mythical creature because as it stands, neither of us can prove that either one is true. Let me know when you have actual proof that shows voter fraud happens rampantly in this country.
You may not have noticed, but NM was not part of the American voting system. If south Africa feels the need to have people id in order to vote that is their privilege and preference.
And who is it that insinuated that poor people can't provide proof needed to vote?
And lastly, not everyone need an id for everyday life. Many don't drive - or even have much need to leave the house. It is an unnecessary imposition to force them to get an id just because republicans have been caught trying to vote illegally.
Are you serious? Everyone against voter ID laws insinuate that it's racist because poor people can't easily obtain the ID (too far, no transportation, have to take off work, etc.).
Yet you lack proof of how much it happens. So yes, voter fraud is similar to a mythical creature because as it stands, neither of us can prove that either one is true. Let me know when you have actual proof that shows voter fraud happens rampantly in this country.
Still not convinced by your ridiculous analogy. Voter fraud is very real, and yes, even documented.
Still not convinced by your ridiculous analogy. Voter fraud is very real, and yes, even documented.
So how often does voter fraud happen? How much voter fraud happened in the 2012 presidential election? Shouldn't be hard for you to answer if it is documented.
Just because you think voter fraud is very real doesn't mean that it is.
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