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Old 11-23-2014, 10:05 PM
 
41,110 posts, read 25,740,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FBJ View Post
That's why I don't understand why all those stupid workers protesting for 15 an hour don't realize that it will hurt them. And if they don't get laid off they will have a reduction of hours to make up for the new wage
It will not only hurt the grubbers, it will make more poor people. As Gruber said, they are too dumb to understand economics so they'll never understand.
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Old 11-23-2014, 10:13 PM
 
76 posts, read 57,716 times
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Raising the federal minimum wage would save the government billions


Really?

The govt has raised it literally dozens of times. Doesn't look to me like they've saved anything at all - their debt passed 17 TRILLION some time ago, and is still skyrocketing even more.

Nice try.
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Old 11-23-2014, 10:26 PM
FBJ
 
Location: Tall Building down by the river
39,605 posts, read 59,025,740 times
Reputation: 9451
Quote:
Originally Posted by petch751 View Post
It will not only hurt the grubbers, it will make more poor people. As Gruber said, they are too dumb to understand economics so they'll never understand.
And do they think they will get 40 hours at Mcdonald's making $15 an hour? lol
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Old 11-24-2014, 12:48 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,464,007 times
Reputation: 9074
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBJ View Post
That's why I don't understand why all those stupid workers protesting for 15 an hour don't realize that it will hurt them. And if they don't get laid off they will have a reduction of hours to make up for the new wage

The teens aren't protesting, the adults - the ones trying to live on that wage - are protesting.

The protesters believe that if anyone loses their job it will be the inexperienced teens, not the adults.

A lot of them don't get EITC so there is no EITC for them to lose.
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:37 AM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
14,848 posts, read 8,210,859 times
Reputation: 4590
I don't know much about the "Economic policy institute". The Wiki page says its a very liberally biased lobbying group. Which makes sense if you look at the topic.

Economic Policy Institute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In my view, the major problem with all liberal points-of-view, is their inability to see passed the first step. Or they are incapable of understanding "price relativity".

What the EPI is basically doing in this article, is saying "If the poor were paid higher wages, we wouldn't need welfare anymore, and the government would save billions".


There are multiple things wrong with this argument.


This entire theory rests on this idea that you can raise wages only for the poor, and that nothing else would change. In reality, a change of minimum wage changes everything. Wages are "relative". For that matter, poverty is relative, because prices are relative.

If I told you that someone was making $100,000 a year. You would understand that that is a lot of money. Why? Because we know what $100,000 can buy relative to current prices. If we were to go to the future, $100,000 won't be much money. In the same way that the first minimum wage in America was just 25 cents.

The problem with the minimum wage, is that it has been increased repeatedly over the last 80 years, and it has never created any of the sort of government savings that its proponents have claimed. Why? Because as wages rise, prices rise. The people making $10 an hour now, will just get paid more when minimum wage goes up.

The minimum wage simply isn't an effective way of accomplishing anything good. At best it is useless, and at worst it is harmful to people with low-skills.


Even when I was a "liberal" or even a "Marxist", I recognized that the minimum wage was useless. One of my major complaints then was CEO pay and even the compensation for pro athletes. I felt both of them were far too high. Not only that, but both of those groups have incomes that grow at a much faster rate than inflation, and in relation to middle-class and working class wages. Why?


In truth, the entire discussion about the minimum wage is actually a side show for the real issues.


You need to ask the question, why does the minimum wage constantly need to be raised? That is simple, inflation. What causes inflation? That is also simple, the Federal Reserve and its associated banking interests.

Then you ask, how do the rich seem to always get richer and richer, even relative to inflation? Keep in mind, when the Federal Reserves loans out money; They are loaning it out to this "wealthy class". You know, Wall Street(investors and bankers). Who use that money to "speculate" in the stock market, as well as equities(IE real estate), and commodities(oil, food, etc). Driving up prices for everyone else, while earning themselves a profit.


If you can't control the Federal Reserve, you cannot control wages, pay equity, nothing. I never understand why Americans seemingly so overwhelmingly support the Federal Reserve. I could almost understand it if the Federal Reserve was directly controlled by government. But outside of some basic regulations, it operates completely independently and largely in secret.


Regardless, if we return to the "actual effects" of wages and this study. We need to understand that government spending on its own is sort of irrelevant. Money itself isn't even all that useful on its own. What we are really talking about when it comes to wages, and government, is the "allocation of resources". In the most basis sense, money is just a carrier of time. Money is a way for you to trade your time for someone else's time. This exchange of time is "productivity" and productivity is a "resource" within a given economic system.

When the government taxes you, they are effectively taking away your resources and using them somewhere else. Whether the government taxes us all at 1% or 100% doesn't matter on its own, as long as the total amount of resources and their allocation stays the same. In that sense, if the government is taxing the rich to provide welfare for the poor, or if the rich are paying higher wages to the poor to the extent that they don't need welfare. It doesn't really matter as long as the total resources and their allocation stays the same.


In the simplest terms, if government provided $10,000 a year in benefits to me, and I earned $10,000 a year on my own. Then my total allocation would be $20,000 a year. If I suddenly was paid $20,000 a year but no longer qualified for government benefits, then my total allocation of overall resources would stay exactly the same.


In that sense, this talk of minimum wage, and saving government money is pretty useless.


The only actual issue here, is first, whether or not these government benefits, or higher compensation have a net benefit to overall productivity. And secondly, whether these government benefits, or higher compensation have a net benefit socially.


As Milton Friedman said, "The minimum wage says you must discriminate against people with low skills".

What that means in effect is. If the minimum wage was $10 an hour, and someone really only had the skills that warranted $8 an hour, or $6 an hour; Then he becomes "unhirable".

When we look at unemployment rates. The "Young black male" unemployment rate is at nearly 40% right now. What benefit is a minimum wage to a young black man who cannot even get a job as it is? Would a rise in the minimum wage reduce young black unemployment?

Unemployment rates are higher for young people, minorities | PBS NewsHour

What benefit is it to this country to have 40% of young black men unemployed? What benefit is it to a young black male from a social level to be unemployed? What do people do when they can't get a job?



To put it lastly in perspective. There is something called the "laffer curve". One of the people who was a major critic of the "Congressional budget office"(because they were always so wrong), asked the CBO to give an estimate of how much tax revenue would be raised by raising the income tax rate to 90%. When they scored the proposal, they assumed that total economic activity would stay the same. So total revenue from such a tax increase would increase total government revenues by about four-fold.


The problem with such a prediction, as I said before, assumes that nothing else would change. But you need to ask, who would work if they were being taxed at 90%? Or at least, who wouldn't be working "under the table"?


The point is, my objection with liberals, is that they just seem to look at the world in an overly simplistic way. Which always seems ironic since they like to see themselves as the intellectual elite.

They never try to understand anything or anyone. When they disagree with you, they just attack you as heartless, greedy, fearful, or just flat crazy.


As a general rule, anyone who calls an entire political ideology "crazy", is a moron.
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Old 11-24-2014, 04:13 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,022 posts, read 2,274,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
so are you saying the public education system sucks?? is it not worthy ??? is it not adequate??

raising the min wage will NOT HELP ANYONE

in fact for the 1-2% of workers that work min wage or near min wage it will hurt them

think about it...what will raising the min wage do:
1. it will put people in a higher tax bracket or higher within their bracket

2. it will push people out of the 'earned income credit' allowance...thus hurting them that are getting a refund

3. it will cost them MORE in health insurance, especially under obamacare/Medicaid as the subsidies are based on income

4. it will add to the inflation rate....it will add to rising costs....it will add to more layoffs



then think about the workers that are already making the $15/hr or there abouts......do you really think the 'manager or assistant manager (skilled/higher responsibility worker) that is making $15-$18 per hour is going to want to work for the same wage as entry level.....NO....they will demand a higher wage....and many companies CAN'T DO IT...most small business (which employs most americans) are only working with a 1%-5% profit margin


the liberal push for a higher min wage will hurt 100 times more than it will help
I never said that public education sucks you are just putting words in my mouth I just said that a bunch of people getting more education skills or education is not answer because there are just not enough jobs for all of them. I think what you mentioned would happen if we suddenly raised it to $15 but I have never supported that I think raising it slowly in small increments would be better.
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Old 11-24-2014, 04:32 AM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,488,320 times
Reputation: 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Eagle View Post
I never said that public education sucks you are just putting words in my mouth I just said that a bunch of people getting more education skills or education is not answer because there are just not enough jobs for all of them. I think what you mentioned would happen if we suddenly raised it to $15 but I have never supported that I think raising it slowly in small increments would be better.
uhm...this is YOUR quote:
Quote:
Okay since you want to avoid answering the question, not add anything to the conversation and try to put the burden of proof on me some people are just not born very intelligent, some people do not grow up with a family that has money to provide them a quality education. Do some people still succeed yes but no one is the exact same you can not prove that because some people do something everyone can. Just because some people can become pro athletes does not mean anyone can. Plus like I have said before if everyone got better paying jobs it would greatly reduce the wages of those higher paying jobs and there is just not enough for everyone.
Quote:
some people do not grow up with a family that has money to provide them a quality education.
I asked a simple question...are you saying primary education...OUR PUBLIC SYSTEM... is not quality

because you are saying that they don't have the MONEY to provide them with QUALITY education...since MOST of our education is through primary school (k-12) and college is what FINISHES (refines) our education...and most college starters(ie community college is quit affordable..(actually FREE with the pell grants that EVERYONE has access to)

I am not putting words in your mouth...I am asking you to explain YOUR sentence ....you did say they are not getting a quality education...explain your self.....

it was your words...not mine
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Old 11-24-2014, 09:15 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,022 posts, read 2,274,837 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
uhm...this is YOUR quote:




I asked a simple question...are you saying primary education...OUR PUBLIC SYSTEM... is not quality

because you are saying that they don't have the MONEY to provide them with QUALITY education...since MOST of our education is through primary school (k-12) and college is what FINISHES (refines) our education...and most college starters(ie community college is quit affordable..(actually FREE with the pell grants that EVERYONE has access to)

I am not putting words in your mouth...I am asking you to explain YOUR sentence ....you did say they are not getting a quality education...explain your self.....

it was your words...not mine
I was talking about college not high school. Community college is affordable yeah okay most classes at the lowest will be at least $500 if you are trying to pay rent and food how would you be able to pay that? How much you get for a Pell Grant depends on on your financial need, how much the school costs and if you are a part time or full time student so you may not get enough to pay for all your school and this all depends if you are smart enough for school some people just do not have the IQ for college. This still does not change what I said that you never mentioned that if everyone goes to school there are not enough jobs for all those people.
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Old 11-24-2014, 09:17 PM
 
20,948 posts, read 19,054,479 times
Reputation: 10270
People don't start businesses to save the government money.

If you live beyond your means and have low skills it's not your employers responsibility.
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Old 11-25-2014, 06:20 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,795 posts, read 7,289,826 times
Reputation: 5194
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojajn View Post
The Economic Policy Institute, a think tank focused on labor issues found that if the minimum wage were increased from its current level of $7.25 per hour to $10.10, as proposed by the Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2014, more than 1.7 million Americans would no longer have to rely on public assistance programs. This would produce $7.6 billion per year or more in savings for the federal government, according to the study.



$10.10 Minimum Wage Would Save The U.S. Government $7.6 Billion A Year
Really? Another loose who wants to get paid more than they are worth.
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