Who do you think is greater: J F Kennedy or Abraham Lincorn (controversial, speech)

[TheEmissary]

How come no one ever mentions Lincorn's father ...Popcorn?

[pvande55]

They were both great men. JFK a war hero who dared to challenge established authority. Started lunar mission. Cut taxes. Solved Cuban missile crisis. But first he was only in for under three years. Lincoln reunited the country and ended slavery. Easily I go with Lincoln. And put both ahead of any Oval Office occupant lately.
And regarding marital issues: Jackie knew what she was getting into. Some say Lincoln should get a medal for putting up with Mary Todd, but he also knew what he was getting into.

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by blktoptrvl

So I don't see how you can blame the war on Lincoln.

Was he playing golf at the time?

Originally Posted by cwa1984

Your telling me the bay of pigs didn't directly lead to the Cuban Missile Crisis? I'm calling bs on that.

The US deployment of Jupiter missiles to Turkey and Italy were the direct cause of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

That is a matter of historical record.

The fact that the US lost the Cuban Missile Crisis and you've been spoon-fed propaganda all your life doesn't alter history or the facts.

Originally Posted by WaldoKitty

Your post has no basis in history or facts.

It's entirely factual. And unlike the liars, I tell the full story from the beginning, instead of suppressing evidence and starting in the middle of the story like high school history books do.

Originally Posted by WaldoKitty

The soviet military had tactical nukes in Cuba...

No, the Soviets had IRBMs.

Originally Posted by WaldoKitty

and on submarines that were not under control of Khrushchev

Straw Man
Your reasoning contains the straw man fallacy whenever you attribute an easily refuted position to your opponent, one that the opponent wouldn’t endorse, and then proceed to attack the easily refuted position (the straw man) believing you have undermined the opponent’s actual position. If the misrepresentation is on purpose, then the straw man fallacy is caused by lying.

Who said anything but submarines or Khrushchev?

Are you suggesting that Cuba is a submerged island paradise like Atlantis?

US and Soviet submarines operated under special protocols for very common sense and logical reasons which are obvious even to a small child.

But then we weren't talking about submarines, we're talking about the deployment of US nuclear weapons system to Turkey and Italy, and the Soviet response in which nuclear weapons were deployed to Cuba to achieve tactical and strategic parity with the US, negating the advantage gained by the hostile US action.

Cubans never had any control over any Soviet nuclear weapons systems, just as the Turks and Italians never had control over the Jupiters.

Later both the US and Soviets changed their policies.

The Germans owned the Pershing IAs and the launchers, but the US owned the nuclear warheads, and US personnel maintained control of the warheads at all times.

The 8"/203mm tactical nuclear warheads the Turks had were always under the control of US personnel. The Turks only controlled the launcher, which in this case is an 8" towed tube.

The Soviets did it the same way. The Czechoslovakians owned the missiles and launchers, but Soviet personnel had sole control of the warheads.

Tactically...

Mircea

[cwa1984]

Originally Posted by Mircea

The US deployment of Jupiter missiles to Turkey and Italy were the direct cause of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

That is a matter of historical record.

The fact that the US lost the Cuban Missile Crisis and you've been spoon-fed propaganda all your life doesn't alter history or the facts.

Your response is a crock of **** to be blunt. Cuba requested nukes because of the bay of pigs fearing further invasions from the United States. The Soviets agreed to place nukes in Cuba after Cuba requested them. While the Soviet Union was not fond of the Jupiter missiles in Turkey and Italy it was JFK's half assed bay of pigs fiasco that ultimately was responsible for the start of the Cuban missile crisis.

[Iamme73]

Originally Posted by beebar

Who in your opinion is greater between these two former America Presidents: J F Kennedy and Abraham Lincoln? State your reason if there is any.

It's not even close. Lincoln changed this whole nation. He freed the ensalved. Arguably the greatest president in American history, either him or FDR.

Kennedy is not in that league.

[Mathguy]

Originally Posted by cwa1984

Your response is a crock of **** to be blunt. Cuba requested nukes because of the bay of pigs fearing further invasions from the United States. The Soviets agreed to place nukes in Cuba after Cuba requested them. While the Soviet Union was not fond of the Jupiter missiles in Turkey and Italy it was JFK's half assed bay of pigs fiasco that ultimately was responsible for the start of the Cuban missile crisis.

You are both correct.

Cuba wanted them because of the Bay of Pigs etc.
USSR wanted them there because of the jupiters in Turkey etc.
(This would be the more important concern because there were other countries that the US had mucked with that would have wanted them....no way they were getting them without the USSR having something to gain in the way of countering the Jupiters)

Without BOTH of those events occurring, it's unlikely we'd have had the crisis.

You are BOTH correct that the US was responsible for both of the above so there is no disagreement on whom started things.

JFK shouldn't get any credit for "fixing" the Cuban Missle Crisis but nobody likes to speak ill of the dead so he kinda gets a pass for mucking things up.

[stellastar2345]

should lincoln have held the union together? what would america be like if the south had broken away?

Personally, I imagine that the northeast/west would be a powerhouse (not as much as it is today, but still be a powerhouse) while the south would be something similar to Canada or Australia. nice places to live, not very open to immigration, but relatively wealthy.

I don't get the fascination with JFK. woo cuban missile crisis. here's a little secret for you, russia didn't want war either.

lincoln obviously shaped the country's future by declaring war on the "confederate states of america". None of Kennedy's actions shaped america.

[stellastar2345]

Originally Posted by Babe_Ruth

But Lincoln's election also helped precipitate that greatest crisis. In modern Lincoln hagiography, it's often forgotten, or omitted, how divisive Lincoln's politics were.

Almost all of America's greatest leaders were divisive. FDR, Theo Roosevelt, Andrew Jackson, etc. It lead to create change. they didn't stick to what was already implemented, and they didn't waffle around. We need someone like that in congress. that person will never get elected because well we are a really polarized nation. we haven't had a strong leader in years, just very charismatic people.

[r small]

If Lincoln hadn't saved the union the South would have become a huge banana republic like Honduras or Guatemala with rich whites drinking mint juleps on their verandas while black slaves did all the work.

[Dumbdowndemocrats]

Lincoln is a penny...Kennedy is a half dollar a no brainer...