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In the United States, the biggest "religion" seems to be self-fulfillment, to "be all that you can be", as the old Army commercials said. Because of that, some people seem to think that changing your gender should be no more radical or controversial than changing your hair color. I disagree.
You didn't watch the interview, did you?
If you had, you'd know that it is a profound issue for Jenner, and he more than anyone understands just how radical and controversial it is. He's lived with it daily for more than 50 years.
He's a devout conservative Christian, so saying his "religion" is self-fulfillment misses the mark.
See, this is what I got to thinking about while watching his interview.
In making the change, he's growing his hair long, wearing women's clothing, and wearing make-up. There are jillions of us women who are very feminine, but may have short hair, wear pants, and not wear make-up.
Does that make us not women?
Is he (and other transgendered people) confused about what it means to be a "woman"?
I guess he's also having hormone therapy, which does what exactly? Make his voice higher? Give him breasts?
What about all of the heterosexual women who have low husky voices and small breasts? Are they not women?
The people I've seen who've transgendered (if that's a verb) into women all seem to buy into the external trappings - hair "done", breasts out, dresses, high heels, and make-up. But as many of us have said, those things don't make a woman a woman - it's our feelings (and private parts.)
And as for those who transgender into men by taking hormones and growing beards and developing lower voices - think of all of the men who can't grow a beard and/or who have high voices.
And what about all of the people, male and female, who have names that are either gender neutral (like "Chris") or are names typically used by the opposite gender (James)?
If the exterior trappings don't matter, if it's the interior personality that matters in self-definition, then why change your appearance? Just so other people will see you as "man" or "woman"? Who cares what other people think???
I guess if nothing else this has made us all think about what it means to be a man or a woman.
^^^This. These same thoughts have passed through my head many times when the topic of transgender people comes up. On one hand our society tells us that sexual identity is not tied to "traditional" gender characteristics. Men shouldn't be expected to be "manly" just because they are male. And women shouldn't be expected to be "girly" just because they are women. On the other hand here is someone who is transitioning and the whole point is to adopt "traditional" female characteristics.
The idea of "living as a woman" is a bit problematic in my mind. But that's just me. What does it mean to live as a woman? Can one just take hormones, put on a dress, get a perm, and now truly understand what it means to be a woman and experience womanhood? On a certain level, isn't that a bit disrespectful to women and their experience?
Bruce Jenner should be (and is) free to live his life as he pleases. So its not about shaming him. However, it does raise other questions.
^^^This. These same thoughts have passed through my head many times when the topic of transgender people comes up. On one hand our society tells us that sexual identity is not tied to "traditional" gender characteristics. Men shouldn't be expected to be "manly" just because they are male. And women shouldn't be expected to be "girly" just because they are women. On the other hand here is someone who is transitioning and the whole point is to adopt "traditional" female characteristics.
The idea of "living as a woman" is a bit problematic in my mind. But that's just me. What does it mean to live as a woman? Can one just take hormones, put on a dress, get a perm, and now truly understand what it means to be a woman and experience womanhood? On a certain level, isn't that a bit disrespectful to women and their experience?
Bruce Jenner should be (and is) free to live his life as he pleases. So its not about shaming him. However, it does raise other questions.
You raise many of the same points as I have, in my own mind and on other threads here on CD about transgenderism. I don't understand how anyone can say "I feel like I am a man" or "I feel like I am a woman" because no two men, nor no two women, feel the same. I just feel like a person. I have the body parts of a woman, so in that regard, I consider myself a woman, but there is certainly no definition of what it means to "feel like a woman."
As you say, it is not about shaming anyone. And I don't have to "get it" to still be respectful of people's choices. But I don't get why people don't just do, dress, and act however they want, yet stick with the age-old definition of penis=male and vagina=female. I mean, biologically, no man can ever BE a woman, and vice versa. To think that some hormones, new clothes, and possibly surgery can actually change the very definition of MAN and WOMAN, to me, just seems like someone playing extreme dress-up or living a fantasy of wishful thinking. Or, at the very least, it requires that we all adopt a new definition of "man" and "woman," and maybe that is the aspect I am most resistant to.
Did you hear what Bruce said? How he put it off because he worried about his kids? It took him a long time. 65 years of putting everyone before himself. Long enough!
If those girls end up with issues, it's least likely because of their father transitioning. They aren't exactly living like teenagers as it is, and are nearly naked at almost every opportunity, with their mother driving their careers. Their father is probably the most normal person in their lives.
You raise many of the same points as I have, in my own mind and on other threads here on CD about transgenderism. I don't understand how anyone can say "I feel like I am a man" or "I feel like I am a woman" because no two men, nor no two women, feel the same. I just feel like a person. I have the body parts of a woman, so in that regard, I consider myself a woman, but there is certainly no definition of what it means to "feel like a woman."
As you say, it is not about shaming anyone. And I don't have to "get it" to still be respectful of people's choices. But I don't get why people don't just do, dress, and act however they want, yet stick with the age-old definition of penis=male and vagina=female. I mean, biologically, no man can ever BE a woman, and vice versa. To think that some hormones, new clothes, and possibly surgery can actually change the very definition of MAN and WOMAN, to me, just seems like someone playing extreme dress-up or living a fantasy of wishful thinking. Or, at the very least, it requires that we all adopt a new definition of "man" and "woman," and maybe that is the aspect I am most resistant to.
Interesting thought. I went to type how I have no feeling of being a man. But truly what does that feel like? I feel 100% woman, but I can't describe it. That said, I can't imagine feeling the way I do, and be in a man's body.
Interesting thought. I went to type how I have no feeling of being a man. But truly what does that feel like? I feel 100% woman, but I can't describe it. That said, I can't imagine feeling the way I do, and be in a man's body.
I tried the same thing after I turned off the show and went to bed. Couldn't imagine what I would feel like if I looked in the mirror and saw a beard and a penis. Good nor bad.
Until I imagined dating. Then I didn't like the idea of having a male body at all. But I guess that's sexual preference more than gender identity, from what I understand.
I tried the same thing after I turned off the show and went to bed. Couldn't imagine what I would feel like if I looked in the mirror and saw a beard and a penis. Good nor bad.
Until I imagined dating. Then I didn't like the idea of having a male body at all. But I guess that's sexual preference more than gender identity, from what I understand.
Of course, if you looked in the mirror today and saw a penis and beard, it would be weird because you've already had a lifetime of being a woman. If your brain had always been in a man's body, perhaps you would have been the same person you are now, for the most part, but because of your body you would have always considered youself male. Social constructs might have caused you to be or feel more masculine.
That's all just guessing on my part, but it makes sense to me.
the part of the interview I am most confused about is Bruce dressing up in his daughter's clothing. I mean that part struck me as a tad creepy. And not that it matters but would their clothes even fit Bruce?
I don't know what he's feeling. But clothing doesn't seem to be the ultimate issue and Bruce seemed to make it a BIG part of his issue.
the part of the interview I am most confused about is Bruce dressing up in his daughter's clothing. I mean that part struck me as a tad creepy. And not that it matters but would their clothes even fit Bruce?
I don't know what he's feeling. But clothing doesn't seem to be the ultimate issue and Bruce seemed to make it a BIG part of his issue.
I don't think he was dressing in his daughter's clothing...I think he said it was the only place that had a full length mirror...but he did admit to wearing his sisters clothes...but I really don't think it is a sexual thing to him...because he had his first cross dressing experiences at 8 or 9 before puberty...
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