Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
Free Market Reform Ideology
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Is that from some Left-Wing Talking Points Site?
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
Which of the following elements of Free Market Reform do you support?
-Insurers free to decline anyone or any condition, at any time
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Sure.
Free Market means Free From Coercion......all transactions are voluntary between parties, not forced, coerced or threatened via extortion or taxation.
What you've done, is this....
Scare Tactic
If you suppose that terrorizing your opponent is giving him a reason for believing that you are correct, then you are using a scare tactic and reasoning fallaciously.
If you have had your driver's license suspended, can you get auto insurance?
If you've had a DUI, can you get auto insurance?
If you've had multiple DUIs, can you get auto insurance?
Yes, in all cases....
....because the Free Market works.
Has the American Hospital Car Association lobbied and bribed State legislatures to enact "
enabling laws" or "
enabling legislation" to hamper auto insurers?
NO.
You people need to understand that insurance is
Intra-State Commerce and the US Congress has no power or authority.
You people need to get it through your thick skulls, that insurance companies are only allowed to do what State insurance laws and State insurance commissions and State insurance regulators and State insurance regulations allow them to do.
Haven't any of you people ever wondered why you can get high risk insurance for any freaking thing you want,
except health insurance?
There is a reason why that is true.
That reason is called the American Hospital Association.
The American Hospital Association has lobbied -- bribed -- State legislatures to enact laws to your detriment....and you people are loving it.
Did I mention that due to the "
enabling laws" or "
enabling legislation," the American Hospital Association's Blue Cross is forced to use the Community Rating Scheme? The insurance laws do not apply to the Community Rating Scheme.
Repeal all of the "
enabling laws" and insurance companies will be able to offer high risk health insurance for those who need or want it.
That's how the Free Market works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
- Healthcare providers free to decline anyone, for any reason, at any time.
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Sure.
That would violate the Hippocratic Oath making it worthless, but then it already is.
In a Free Market system of Medical Care, hospitals would not exist in the US.
The system of Medical Care in the US would become like the European System.
In place of hospitals, you'd have clinics and polyclinics.
Women would never go to a hospital for child-birth.
Women would go to a birthing clinic and pay a mid-wife $450, or if squeamish, pay a doctor $1,900.
It's $9,200 in this area, because there is no Free Market system of medical care.
$1,900 or $9,200.
Big difference.
Very obviously, if a pregnant woman went to an orthopedic clinic, they'd have to turn her away, since they might have an MICU, but not an NICU.
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Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
-No Medicare,...
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Red Herring
A red herring is a smelly fish that would distract even a bloodhound. It is also a digression that leads the reasoner off the track of considering only relevant information.
Scare Tactic
If you suppose that terrorizing your opponent is giving him a reason for believing that you are correct, then you are using a scare tactic and reasoning fallaciously.
1] Technology up to 65%
2] Consumer Demand up to 36%
3] Expanding Health Benefits or Insuring more people up to 13%
4] Healthcare Price Inflation up to 19% (caused by Consumer Demand and insuring more people)
5] Administrative Costs up to 13% (caused by Technology, Consumer Demand and Regulations)
6] Aging/Elderly up to 7%
Source: United States Government General Accounting Office GAO-13-281
PPACA and the Long-Term Fiscal Outlook, January 2013 pp 31-36
Pick a date: January 1, 1995.
Everyone born prior to that is covered by Medicare, all others are not.
The Medicare program which is necessary because no Free Market system has existed since 1933, would end by attrition.
It is Item #2 that is influenced by Medicare. A few rule changes can fix that.
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Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
... Medicaid...
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Red Herring
A red herring is a smelly fish that would distract even a bloodhound. It is also a digression that leads the reasoner off the track of considering only relevant information.
Scare Tactic
If you suppose that terrorizing your opponent is giving him a reason for believing that you are correct, then you are using a scare tactic and reasoning fallaciously.
The federal government ends Medicaid.
Each State and Commonwealth develops its own system to deal with bizarre-strange-circumstances-where-people-fall-through-the-cracks, since there are bizarre-strange-circumstances-where-people-fall-through-the-cracks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
... or VA....
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Red Herring
Scare Tactic
Is it your intent to end all Worker's Compensation? Or just Worker's Compensation for military members?
Worker's Compensation is the result of more than 900 years of English Common Law involving the Master-Servant Relationship.
A Servant injured in the employ of his Master is entitled to receive care, compensation and payment for lost wages.
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
... or EMTLA. Hospitals are free to decline anyone who can't pay.
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Red Herring
Scare Tactic
Misrepresentation
If the misrepresentation occurs on purpose, then it is an example of lying. If the misrepresentation occurs during a debate in which there is misrepresentation of the opponent’s claim, then it would be the cause of a straw man fallacy.
EMTALA exists for this reason:
Your child is injured in an automobile accident. Your child is rushed to Good Samaritan Hospital....an American Hospital Association member hospital. You have the wrong insurance, so Good Samaritan sends your child to Citizens County Hospital, or Citizens Memorial Hospital (operated by the county) or Citizens General Hospital (operated by the city) or Citizens University Hospital (operated by the State or the city or both).
En route during the transfer, your child dies.
Another victory for the American Hospital Association's Soviet-style "
Out-of-Network" Clause created in 1939 to put those hospitals who refused membership in the American Hospital Association out of business.
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Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
-No FDA
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Red Herring
Scare Tactic
Misrepresentation
Why would there not be an FDA?
The Free Market does not mean freedom to water-down or dilute drugs to the point that they are ineffective, in order to make a profit.
The Free Market does not mean freedom to sell a cure for the headache without telling people the medication cures their headache, but causes blindness or death.
The Free Market is parties acting in Good Faith engaging in voluntary Consumer Transactions.
Why is it so hard for people to get that through their numbskulls?
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Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
-No Anti-Trust
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Hospitals are exempt from anti-Trust Laws.
Yeah, that's right.....the American Hospital Association lobbied State legislatures for exemptions to Anti-Trust Laws.
That's a fact....everyone needs to grow up and get over it.
The American Hospital Association argued that the charitable works its member-hospitals perform outweighs the negative impact and economic losses caused by the lack of competition.
Does anyone not see a problem with American Hospital Association member-hospitals dumping patients on tax-payer funded city, county and State/university hospitals?
Can you say EMTALA?
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
-No caps on Medical Malpractice
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Red Herring
Scare Tactic
Where does Medical Malpractice fall into the scheme?
Let's look......
1] Technology up to 65%
2] Consumer Demand up to 36%
3] Expanding Health Benefits or Insuring more people up to 13%
4] Healthcare Price Inflation up to 19% (caused by Consumer Demand and insuring more people)
5] Administrative Costs up to 13% (caused by Technology, Consumer Demand and Regulations)
6] Aging/Elderly up to 7%
Source: United States Government General Accounting Office GAO-13-281
PPACA and the Long-Term Fiscal Outlook, January 2013 pp 31-36
Anyone see Medical Malpractice on the list?
Nope.....the costs associated Medical Malpractice......
and the uninsured combined....are so low they are not even on the radar.
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Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
-No supplement for residencies.
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I have no knowledge of that.
I assume you're referring to medical residencies. That is a necessary part of the medical training.
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
-No licensing of medical schools, hospitals, MDs or healthcare workers.
- No patents
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Red Herring
Scare Tactic
Misrepresentation
There is absolutely nothing in the Free Market Doctrines that say licenses and patents cannot be issued.
Free Market does not mean free to steal the work or labor of others and pass it off fraudulently as your own or work.
Nor does it mean you are free to misrepresent the owner of the work or labor.
Once again, for the hard-of-hearing.....
THE FREE MARKET IS PARTIES ACTING IN GOOD FAITH ENGAGING IN VOLUNTARY CONSUMER TRANSACTIONS.
How is it Good Faith that someone claims to be trained at a medical facility, when in fact, they have not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
-Free markets assume there is a reasonable balance of buyers and sellers and knowledge.
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Nope, wrong answer.
That is Okun talking there.
Okun pretended to be an Economist.
Okun made that claim in the 1960s.....he was quasi-Keynesian and not in favor of Free Markets.
It is mere folly to allow opponents of Free Markets to define what Free Markets are, since --as I've demonstrated -- all you get is Red Herrings, Scare Tactics and Misrepresentations.
Also, Okun was referring specifically to investors.
He was talking about buyers and sellers of stocks, bonds, and other financial instruments, and Capital.
Someone has ripped his statement out of context.
To the extent that the claim is viable, tell us about the gasoline you buy.
What do you know about cars? Combustion engines? Canneries? The canning process? Agriculture and Animal Husbandry? The textile Industry? Etc etc etc?
You don't know anything about those things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
Most people are admitted to the hospital on short notice. They are not in position to negotiate. Assuming they could negotiate, how long would it take to get admitted given the hospital was busy haggling fees instead of saving lives? How would a patient evaluate the worth of a medical service, MD, or hospital? Would they consider the number of " likes" on their respective Face Book pages or reviews compiled by friends, family and employees?
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That's stupid.
Red Herring
Scare Tactic
Misrepresentation
Straw Man
Your reasoning contains the straw man fallacy whenever you attribute an easily refuted position to your opponent, one that the opponent wouldn’t endorse, and then proceed to attack the easily refuted position (the straw man) believing you have undermined the opponent’s actual position
In a Free Market system, absent an emergency, you'd have the freedom to shop around, you know, get estimates.
In an emergency you would not have that luxury, but then why would it matter?
You have insurance.
In fact,
that's exactly why you have insurance.
You just negated your whole argument.
In the Cincinnati Market and many others, the true cost of open-heart surgery is $13,000, as charged by respected, published, big-name doctors.
Oddly, the hospitals charge $26,000 to $41,000.
But that's because you don't have a Free Market.
In a system of Free Market medical care, the cost of open-heart surgery is about the same no matter where you go.
You're going to quibble over $12,900 and $13,100 in an emergency?
It does not matter since you have insurance.
: smack:
:s mack:
That's exactly why you have insurance.
Your nonsensical idea of shopping for medical care during an emergency is valid only in a world in which insurance does not exist.
You're about to run out of gasoline on the interstate.
Are you going to shop around for the lowest gasoline price, or get gasoline at the nearest place you can find?
Hey, great, your android app has found a place that charges $0.03 less per gallon.....too bad it's too far away for you to get there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
A hospital's " Charge Master" determines the cost of a particular blood test to be $199.
Medicare pays $13.47 based upon the true cost , plus overhead. No profit.
Insurance pays $24.50. The difference between what was billed off the "Charge Master" and what the hospital contractually agreed to be paid is reflected as the PPO discount on the Statement of Benefits.
Hospital may negotiate with an uninsured patient for an amount less than $199 but greater than $24.50.
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In a Free Market system of Medical Care, no hospital could even charge $199.
Economically...
Mircea
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