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Old 01-18-2008, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Land of Thought and Flow
8,323 posts, read 15,171,483 times
Reputation: 4957

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow73 View Post
Hate to break it to you, but if that's what your company's telling you, it's quite possible they're lying to you. The DFAR says nothing about this. Most of my career has been working for government contractors, military and civilian. I've seen a few things and I've never seen this one. It may be you guys have a pathetic contract officer who failed to get some inane section written out of the contract or maybe you're working in real time ops where time off console is important. But it's more likely, imo, that your company is preventing you guys from hording vacation at a lower rate and taking it a few years down the road when you're at a higher rate. I've seen various arrangements of vacation carrying limits and all are company policy and not enforced by the FAR.
Actually, there's a big reason why there are hour restrictions as part of the contract. Lockheed Martin used to have the the contract. Without going too much into detail, they ran about $1 million over budget because they didn't factor in wages. Everyone had to go about 12 weeks without pay to offset it - it was horrible. Those who had vacation used it, but after that.... bad news. That was in 2005.

Well, because of that, Lockheed Martin lost the contract. Now, the wages are paid up front by the government. No more than 1880 hours per person, along with some other money limitations so that it does not happen again.

And as far as the company lying, everyone has an official copy of the contract for reference. There's a lot of rules with what we do, set by NAVAIR.

Honestly, I don't like the idea of not being able to get overtime, but that's what I accepted when I took the job. I don't think, for a second, that the government should be able to regulate how much vacation any "regular" job has or doesn't have. They should only dabble in the jobs they control.
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,026 posts, read 24,630,992 times
Reputation: 20165
The International Labor Organization (ILO) has once again concluded that the Belgian work
force is one of the most productive in the world.
In its annual report, Key Indicators of the Labour Market, the ILO concludes that the US and
Belgium are the top two performers in terms of productivity per worker. The output per
person employed in the US was $ 60,728 in 2002, followed by Belgium with $ 54,338.
Ireland, France and Norway complete the top five.
Because of the difference in hours worked, the figures for output per hour worked show
Norway, France and Belgium ahead of the US since the mid 1990s. In 2002 Norway had an
output per hour worked of about $ 38, followed by France at $ 35, Belgium at $ 34 and the
US at $ 32.
International Labour Organization - Home

Apart from the US all those countries have mandatory PAID vacation and still manage to do pretty darn well.

Norway 25 days MINIMUM paid vacation PLUS 9 or 10 National Holidays
France 30 days Minimum Plus 10 National Holidays
Belgium 20 days Minimum PLUS 10 National Holidays
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:44 AM
 
Location: southern california
61,288 posts, read 87,431,754 times
Reputation: 55562
bottom line profit not productivity? cheaper people?

Last edited by Huckleberry3911948; 01-18-2008 at 09:49 AM..
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,554 posts, read 86,992,173 times
Reputation: 36644
Americans ara basicly just keeping busy servicing each other. 76% of our GDP arises from the service sector, which is virtually the highest in the world. If people would learn do to things for themselves, we could give everybody months of vacation. But nobody has time to do anything for themselves, because they are all busy on the job doing things for somebody else. Ouir whole economy consists of taking in each other's laundry.

Paradoxically, though, it seems that there is nobody in the service sector. You have to bus your own table at McDonalds, and you cant get past "your call is important to us",, and only 2 of the 30 checkout lines are open. So if we have a labor force of 150-million, and 110 million of those are in the service sector, WTF are they doing all day?
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:50 AM
 
1,408 posts, read 4,863,030 times
Reputation: 486
While I'm all in favor of vacations & time off, the operative word here is "mandated"!

I'm sick of the government mandating things, period. Haven't those meddlesome control-freaks intruded in our lives & the economy enough already?!

If anything, bureaucrats ought to step aside (get the H-E-double-toothpicks out of our way!) and leave this issue up to individuals and our employers.
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,554 posts, read 86,992,173 times
Reputation: 36644
Quote:
Originally Posted by LancasterNative View Post
While I'm all in favor of vacations & time off, the operative word here is "mandated"!

I'm sick of the government mandating things, period. .
Do you think your boss would give you ANY vacation if he didn't HAVE to? And overtime pay, and sick days? Do you think he'd be an equal opportunity employer? For that matter, do you think he'd pay you every Friday, (with your payroll tax deducted for you) and pay your unemployment insurance and workers compensation, if there were no laws, regulations and mandates requiring him to?
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:54 AM
 
Location: The Rock!
2,370 posts, read 7,761,797 times
Reputation: 849
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuharai View Post
Actually, there's a big reason why there are hour restrictions as part of the contract. Lockheed Martin used to have the the contract. Without going too much into detail, they ran about $1 million over budget because they didn't factor in wages. Everyone had to go about 12 weeks without pay to offset it - it was horrible. Those who had vacation used it, but after that.... bad news. That was in 2005.

Well, because of that, Lockheed Martin lost the contract. Now, the wages are paid up front by the government. No more than 1880 hours per person, along with some other money limitations so that it does not happen again.

And as far as the company lying, everyone has an official copy of the contract for reference. There's a lot of rules with what we do, set by NAVAIR.

Honestly, I don't like the idea of not being able to get overtime, but that's what I accepted when I took the job. I don't think, for a second, that the government should be able to regulate how much vacation any "regular" job has or doesn't have. They should only dabble in the jobs they control.
gotcha!! It's an unusual aspect of a contract. Sounds like you guys are being punished for something someone else did. Your company must have really wanted that contract badly to not push back on that.
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,100 posts, read 39,266,002 times
Reputation: 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Do you think your boss would give you ANY vacation if he didn't HAVE to? And overtime pay, and sick days? Do you think he'd be an equal opportunity employer? For that matter, do you think he'd pay you every Friday, (with your payroll tax deducted for you) and pay your unemployment insurance and workers compensation, if there were no laws, regulations and mandates requiring him to?
No law says I have to give any vacation

No law says I have to give sick days

There is no law that says I have to provide any benefits at all

There is no law that says I have to pay you every Friday - or every other Friday etc. Paydays are what the employer and employee agree to

And yes, there are laws that say I have to pay an employee for work done - to not do so is slavery.

As for Unemployement insurance - that is a variable predicated on how many hours you work

All of the above said, it is to MY benefit, as an employer, to provide time off - paid or not.

But, let the competitive marketplace determine benefits / time off / vacations - not the government
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:09 AM
 
1,408 posts, read 4,863,030 times
Reputation: 486
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Do you think your boss would give you ANY vacation if he didn't HAVE to? And overtime pay, and sick days? Do you think he'd be an equal opportunity employer? For that matter, do you think he'd pay you every Friday, (with your payroll tax deducted for you) and pay your unemployment insurance and workers compensation, if there were no laws, regulations and mandates requiring him to?
Yes. Because if he didn't, then someone else would. That's how the free market works.

As a member of the workforce, I do not think of myself as some mindless worker-bee slave who's subject to/controlled by the whims of my master (employer). Nor should any American think that way!

Think of yourself as the owner of a specific total skillset, talents, experience, etc. That is your capital, which you own. Your skills are the product, which you are free to sell to the highest bidder (employer). You needn't accept anything less than the best offer for your product, right?

Employment under the former schema is how Marxists and other class-envy promoters view things. It's all about the "proletariat" and us-vs.-them struggle. Who needs that?

See, employment under the second mindset is a two-sided, mutually beneficial deal. Notice the employer is a bidder/buyer of your work. That's capitalism.
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,554 posts, read 86,992,173 times
Reputation: 36644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
No law says I have to give any vacation

No law says I have to give sick days

There is no law that says I have to provide any benefits at all
Yes there are, for full-time eployees. Which is why so many disreputable companies (like WalMart) employ so many 'part time' workers, working 27 hours a week. Under 28 hours exempts the employer from many federal and state labor codes.
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