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That's what I think too; and also the reason that Hispanics are becoming bimodal. Also, I think Asians and now possibly Hispanics are more likely to push underprepared students to take the admissions tests anyways, creating the lower modes and lowering mean scores. I am not as familiar with different Asian cultures and their approach to education, but several Hispanic cultures strongly push attending any college, resulting in enormous enrollment at community colleges and Hispanic serving institutions (which are also mostly community colleges and Cal State schools). This large population of 2-year college students are going to contribute to building that lower mode.
(You don't have to take the SAT for 2-year schools, but it replaces the placement tests and can be useful for articulated transfer to a 4-year school. So, many 2-year students take it anyway.)
Good point.
Yet more reason why "race" should be removed from any selection criteria for colleges using AA.
And that is one reason why you can not extrapolate percent of one race attending a school (Berkeley) to their expected percentage in the total population (all races). And if a larger percentage of Asian students score 2300 and 2400 relative to the total Asian population, even more Asians will qualify for Berkeley relative to Whites.
For example: You have a population of 100 people comprised of 80 who are White and 20 who are Asian. Of those 80 Whites, only 10 score 2300 and 2400 on the SAT. But of those 20 Asians, 15 score 2300 and 2400 on the SAT. Who is going to have more people qualify based on SAT scores, both as a percentage of the total Asian + White population and also as a percentage of the total Asian population?
I suspect the bimodal nature of the Asian SAT scores is related to demographics. Asians are not one monolithic group with identical immigration histories. Asians as a group are not necessarily "smarter", but rather may have more people skewed towards the higher end, perhaps reflecting a more homogenous group as measured by SES and IQ. This could be due to a selection bias based on their immigration history, while the lower end is more heterogenous based on the immigrant pool as measured by immigration history.
Just as I believe that Whites based upon the example above are not "dumber" per se, but rather their population as a whole is more heterogenous and encompasses a broader range of people with varying abilities.
To clarify: This means that the higher mode may be comprised of more of the better educated, higher IQ and higher SES immigrants of their respective native countries, who moved to the US for a variety of reasons (including as refugees), but mainly for highly trained work and higher education. In contrast, the second group may be comprised of more refugees, who because they draw from a broader population pool in terms of education, IQ and SES will have more diversity in those areas. And if the population of the first group is larger than the second amongst those who take the SAT, the two modes will be skewed towards the higher one.
I can't wait until College Affirmative Action is eliminated and Asians make up 70% of the Ivy League schools or Ivy quality schools(MIT/Stanford). If anything, AA has only helped white students have a higher percentage in the elite colleges.
Lol... sounds you are racist... discriminating against them on skin color instead of merit...
It doesn't use obvious quotas, but there are other ways to discriminate against whites in favor of non-whites.
And UC never stopped doing that.
You're smart enough to figure this all out -- based on my post and a little bit of google research -- but choose not to.
Can't help you, I'm afraid.
The numbers speak for themselves. Not just for Berkeley, but nationally.
Asian SAT scores are hardly better than white SAT scores. But Asians have been WAY over-represented relative to their percentage of the population at our elite universities, while whites have been grossly underrepresented.
I don't buy the "Whites are dummies 'stealing' college places from Asian 'geniuses'" complaints by Asians and other people who hate whites.
When Asians go to college, guess whose achievements they are mostly studying?
The achievements of whites -- who are just as smart now as they ever were.
Wow dude, you're a true real live white supremacist. You are breaking up achievements by "race" lol, who brought the bow and arrow to eurasia? The bow and arrow is the first existence of weapory used against from one homosapien to another. Without it, the diaspora of europe wouldn't exist. No bow and arrow=no gun=no white people lol.
It offended every free black American! I would feel less than a person if my own government confirmed, I could never make it in life without them keeping me enslaved to the government. So why try and make it.
Today, Blacks in high places, are not required to be the best they can. They are required to be black.
That is what affirmative action has brought us. Look at the President and his racist wife, for proof of this.
Affirmative Action, made it all the way to the Whitehouse requirements.
Oh goodness, please. This is what people convince themselves of when they don't want to admit to their chosen mediocrity. What many fail to realize is that many people in high places have to perform to get ahead - regardless of background. In certain professional schools, exams are anonymous.
Law school is a great example. That means that the President and his wife had to perform.
Affirmative action has brought us people who want an excuse to whine and complain about what they believe others are receiving rather than to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. WhIle they are busy speculating and making assumptions about what others are supposedly receiving, those same people are working and surpassing them. Then they want to complain out of jealousy. Learn to WORK.
You know, at the end of the day colleges are supposed let you in based on GPA, SAT score, and maybe some intangibles such as playing the cello or shooting a foul shot.
Would it be so bad if we just stuck to those standards? Justice Sotomayer probably was not Princeton material, but she would have easily been admitted to places like Brandeis, NYU, UVa, etc. Would that have been so bad? Would that have been an injustice?
If someone's best shot is Long Beach State, why pretend they deserve Berkeley? Is attending Long Beach State so bad? It is accredited. People go there, graduate, and get jobs.
What is so unjust about standards and requirements?
Is it so bad that Justice Sotomayor went to Princeton, performed excellently, went on to a distinguished law school and a distinguished career? She was obviously Princeton material given her achievements.
Wow dude, you're a true real live white supremacist. You are breaking up achievements by "race" lol, who brought the bow and arrow to eurasia? The bow and arrow is the first existence of weapory used against from one homosapien to another. Without it, the diaspora of europe wouldn't exist. No bow and arrow=no gun=no white people lol.
I'm a black man, and I truly believe blacks and whites would get along much better if we as black people stopped depending on them for everything and created our own economic bases and institutions away from whites.
The problem is as blacks we love to try to get ourselves in everything owned by whites because we've had it ingrained in us that everything they have is of quality standard. We want to get into their corporations and beg them for jobs, we want to go to their schools, be included in their movies and shows, and be allowed to go to their entertainment venues rather than CREATE OUR OWN. We clearly aren't meant to get along, and I really don't see why it is so hard to understand that when you have your own ecnomic empowerment amongst your people, problems like these aren't as common. For example, the Asian community. Let's CREATE OUR OWN banks, restaurants, clubs, brands, etc.
Imagine, these issues such as affirmative action wouldn't be talked about if we as blacks started our own high-quality schools and businesses.
I tell my friends and family nearly every day they tell me stories about how they are disrespected by the waiters, their bosses, and others they patronize through either overt or subliminal racism and when I ask them "Instead of breaking your back to shop at that white-owned store that profiled you, why didn't you go to the black-owned store that has just as great quality clothes..." and they get quiet.
Self-economic-empowerment, it is the answer to problems like this.
Except they are better, and the difference is greater at the high end of scores. If one group of four students scores 1750, 1800, 1800, 1850 and another group scores 1100, 1400, 2300, and 2400, the latter group is going to put more students in Berkeley despite identical average test scores.
You have no evidence that Asians typically fall into the second group while whites typically fall into the first.
And there is no reason to believe that such a difference in distribution would exist on a large scale.
So the burden of proof is on you, given that your claim is prima facie not credible.
When Asians only comprise 15% of the population of California, but 42% of Berkeley's entering class -- while whites comprise over 40% of the population of California but only 24% of Berkeley's entering class -- then average Asian SAT scores should be a lot higher than average white SAT scores.
Not 69 points higher.
And that is even more true to the extent that Berkeley selects its class on a national basis, given that Asians are only about 5% of the nation's population while whites are 63%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mingna
And that is one reason why you can not extrapolate percent of one race attending a school (Berkeley) to their expected percentage in the total population (all races). And if a larger percentage of Asian students score 2300 and 2400 relative to the total Asian population, even more Asians will qualify for Berkeley relative to Whites.
For example: You have a population of 100 people comprised of 80 who are White and 20 who are Asian. Of those 80 Whites, only 10 score 2300 and 2400 on the SAT. But of those 20 Asians, 15 score 2300 and 2400 on the SAT.
Are suggesting that 75% of Asian SAT takers score 2300 to 2400?
If you are, then the average SAT score for Asians would have to be a lot higher than it is -- even if the remaining 25% of your Asian sample scored zero.
But of course, we already know the answer: 75% of Asian SAT takers do not score 2300-2400.
Quote:
I suspect the bimodal nature of the Asian SAT scores is related to demographics.
Hmm, I knew b.s. was on the horizon when I first saw the word "bimodal" in this thread.
Quote:
Asians are not one monolithic group with identical immigration histories. Asians as a group are not necessarily "smarter", but rather may have more people skewed towards the higher end, perhaps reflecting a more homogeneous group as measured by SES and IQ. This could be due to a selection bias based on their immigration history, while the lower end is more heterogeneous based on the immigrant pool as measured by immigration history.
Just as I believe that Whites based upon the example above are not "dumber" per se, but rather their population as a whole is more heterogeneous and encompasses a broader range of people with varying abilities.
If you're saying that only the very smartest Asians apply to elite universities, but that whites who apply to those same universities include many marginal and unqualified candidates, then you are going to have to prove that.
There is no good reason to believe that is true, especially when considering large groups of applicants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mingna
To clarify: This means that the higher mode may be comprised of more of the better educated, higher IQ and higher SES immigrants of their respective native countries, who moved to the US for a variety of reasons (including as refugees), but mainly for highly trained work and higher education. In contrast, the second group may be comprised of more refugees, who because they draw from a broader population pool in terms of education, IQ and SES will have more diversity in those areas. And if the population of the first group is larger than the second amongst those who take the SAT, the two modes will be skewed towards the higher one.
Again, you are suggesting that only the smartest Asians apply to Berkeley, while average whites (average meaning a range from unqualified to very qualified) apply.
You have no basis for making that suggestion.
And the burden of proof is on you, because your claim is outlandish on its face.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diallomacedo
Wow dude, you're a true real live white supremacist.
Am I? On what basis do you say that -- that I don't think whites should be racially discriminated against? That I recognize the achievements of whites? Why am I not supposed to recognize them?
Quote:
You are breaking up achievements by "race" lol,
Why not?
I didn't start all the "affirmative action" racist discrimination.
That's where all the racial comparisons started.
Quote:
who brought the bow and arrow to Eurasia? The bow and arrow is the first existence of weaponry used against from one homo sapien to another.
I always thought it was the club.
Quote:
Without it, the diaspora of Europe wouldn't exist. No bow and arrow=no gun=no white people lol.
Your reasoning appears to be impeccable.
Last edited by dechatelet; 12-18-2015 at 01:44 AM..
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